Trouble with Liros Herkules eye splice

[ohthetrees]

I am not overly experienced at double braid eye-splices, but I have several successes under my belt. However, I have some 14mm Liros Herkules that has totally defeated me. I’ve tried 4x, 2x with Samson instructions and 2x with a Toss wand and Toss instructions. The cover is just so damn tight! All I have to show for it is several blisters on my hands!

Does anyone have experience with this particular rope?

[Paul L]

Not with that type of double braid, but definately with some ones that put up an extreme fight. Have you taken a mallet to the bunched part and whacked it all around? Then use a heavy tool in the loop and jerk it back very hard many times. Then repeat. You should make some progress on each iteration.

[Benz]

There are some brands where the cover thickness/tightness, or the disproportion of core to cover, or the tightness of the core windings make things hard to splice. This might be one of them. Sometimes it's a matter of finding the right technique nuance for that rope; sometimes it's just bad rope.
My favorite brands for double braid polyester are Yale, followed by New England Ropes, followed by Samson. Marlow is decent for double braid, but they shine brighter in other places.

[ohthetrees]

Thanks for those suggestions. I’ll let my blisters heal and take another crack at it.

[jack630]

I had a rigger tell me he used Teflon spray to help it along. That was after I gave the lines to him to splice because my hands were too sore to try any more.

[FabioC]

At what step do you get stuck? Remember that with covers that are overly tight and do not give, the right fid is crucial for success. Forget Samson's instructions and fid, they describe an ideal world where all lines are easy...
The Toss Wand is a step in the right direction, but there are better ones. The key is to have a low profile throughout. With any wand, do not use it as per the instructions, instead use some thread and stitch the line that you want to pull through to the end of the wand, making sure that the profile is as streamlined as possible, then spray a little teflon for good measure. Then pull and hammer the line iteratively, it will go through.

[jack630]

Fabio,
Pulling it through with a thread is a good idea. The fids and wands do take up too much room. Do you have any special methods of stitching the thread on?

[FabioC]

Originally Posted by jack630

Fabio,
Pulling it through with a thread is a good idea. The fids and wands do take up too much room. Do you have any special methods of stitching the thread on?

Select a wand that is rigid but as thin as possible. Stitch the line to the end of the wand so there are no bulges. There needs to be no gap between the line and the wand. I use whipping thread because the stitches need to be very strong, since you'll be pulling like hell. The challenge is to stitch in such a way that the line does not unravel. What I found works best is to have four stitches of various length, grasping the line in different places, carefully balanced (it pays to spend time getting the stitches just right, it will save a lot of frustration later). I also found that the wand/line joint needs to be a little stiff for the line to go through with minimal resistance and to allow for the wiggling motion (see below). For this, it is beneficial to very tightly whip the line near the joint (only two or three rounds, and bury any knot even the smallest one), which also increases the strength of the joint, so the thread does not break as you pull. The other trick, as others have mentioned, is to hammer the receiving line before starting and when you get stuck. However, when you get stuck, brute force is necessary but should not preclude wiggling: you hammer the line, then you wiggle the joint in a rotating motion, then you pull like crazy, then repeat.

[jack630]

Thanks Fabio. That's some good information. I could see that the stitching would have to be very balanced so the line pulls straight in line with the wand. And no exposed knots. Do you make your own wand?

I don't generally have trouble with polyester double braids, but those dynema or spectra cored lines are really tough.

[FabioC]

No, I bought several and finally found one that is strong and thin. Unfortunately, I forgot the brand and the wand has no distinguishing marks on it, but if you do a search for wands (or maybe the ones I have in mind are called splicing needles? not sure...) you should be able to find good ones. Personally, I do not like the Toss wand because the end is not rigid, so you cannot get a solid joint with the line, but others may disagree.

My quest for the perfect wand was motivated by wanting to splice New England Dinghy Tow Rope, double braid NYLON, which I consider the most difficult line to splice (in fact, New England states that it is not spliceable, and in many ways they are right...). Anyway, I engaged on a personal battle with the line and eventually succeeded, but it was not easy...

[Seaworthy Lass]

Hi Ohthetrees

I found the thicker Liros Herkules a PITA to eye splice, but I had not had much experience with double braid beforehand.

The 14mm line used for the Walder boom break was the worst. This was attached to the capping on our bulwark with a soft shackle I had made and I wanted to eliminate the bowline. I struggled both with burying the core in the cover then lastly pulling the cover over all the exposed core.

For the first bit I used a splicing needle (rigid version of a wand). I find this much easier than a bulky Selma type fid. Extreme care is needed not to snag the core when inserting the needle. As with burying single braid Dyneema, I tapered the core before feeding this through the eye of the needle. In 14 mm line it was still torture.

FabioC’s method of stitching sounds like a good idea. Next time I planned to do this with a soft fid. Although bulkier than simply stitching, it does give a very sleek entry and it is slippery, which should help. Premium Ropes sell these, but they can also be easily made. As Fabio pointed out, both wriggling and hammering then helps.

Regarding the last stage, Samson Ropes give excellent instructions in their pdf Double Braid Class 1 Eye Splice. It helps to pull the cover over a tight (therefore thin) core. This also prevents any bunching of the core, which makes the process truly hard if it occurs. The standing end with the knot needs to be secured then a line tied to the crossover point (NOT just looped through the eye) and the core winched to be tight. I used an Icicle hitch. A rolling hitch with extra turns would probably be fine as well. Samson’s diagram below clarifies this.

Regarding double braid splices in general, Samson’s written instructions in the above pdf are by far the best technique I have found:
https://www.samsonrope.com/docs/defa...rsn=3976dd6f_2

In my opinion, the best YouTube based on Samson’s technique is:
https://youtu.be/QXK6oi8Sd4s

Any videos that make it look easy are generally either not burying much core or cutting off an excessive amount relative to the cover. The latter is common. In line that is 12+ mm in diameter it is tough work and any technique that is easy should be shunned.

Splices do fail. If a line fails not at the splice it may still be due to a poor splice if the relationship between core and cover has been severely disrupted, which some instructions end up doing.

[Benz]

I'll say it again: what matters most, once you've got decent technique, is rope quality. The ratio of core-to-cover volume matters; thickness of cover; tightness of cover weave; tightness of core windings (how many turns per foot the helices make). I find inch-and-a-half New England Ropes' nylon dockline easier to splice than 3/8" Nova Braid polyester.
The Samson directions are very good, though you should only need a winch and tension on lines bigger than an inch. Otherwise you have the wrong rope or the wrong technique.

[ohthetrees]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi Ohthetrees

I found the thicker Liros Herkules a PITA to eye splice, but I had not had much experience with double braid beforehand.

The 14mm line used for the Walder boom break was the worst. This was attached to the capping on our bulwark with a soft shackle I had made and I wanted to eliminate the bowline. I struggled both with burying the core in the cover then lastly pulling the cover over all the exposed core.

For the first bit I used a splicing needle (rigid version of a wand). I find this much easier than a bulky Selma type fid. Extreme care is needed not to snag the core when inserting the needle. As with burying single braid Dyneema, I tapered the core before feeding this through the eye of the needle. In 14 mm line it was still torture.

FabioC’s method of stitching sounds like a good idea. Next time I planned to do this with a soft fid. Although bulkier than simply stitching, it does give a very sleek entry and it is slippery, which should help. Premium Ropes sell these, but they can also be easily made. As Fabio pointed out, both wriggling and hammering then helps.

Regarding the last stage, Samson Ropes give excellent instructions in their pdf Double Braid Class 1 Eye Splice. It helps to pull the cover over a tight (therefore thin) core. This also prevents any bunching of the core, which makes the process truly hard if it occurs. The standing end with the knot needs to be secured then a line tied to the crossover point (NOT just looped through the eye) and the core winched to be tight. I used an Icicle hitch. A rolling hitch with extra turns would probably be fine as well. Samson’s diagram below clarifies this.

Regarding double braid splices in general, Samson’s written instructions in the above pdf are by far the best technique I have found:
https://www.samsonrope.com/docs/defa...rsn=3976dd6f_2

In my opinion, the best YouTube based on Samson’s technique is:
https://youtu.be/QXK6oi8Sd4s

Any videos that make it look easy are generally either not burying much core or cutting off an excessive amount relative to the cover. The latter is common. In line that is 12+ mm in diameter it is tough work and any technique that is easy should be shunned.

Splices do fail. If a line fails not at the splice it may still be due to a poor splice if the relationship between core and cover has been severely disrupted, which some instructions end up doing.

Great stuff, thank you. After 4 attempts, and something like 12 hours of effort, I finally succeeded. But damn. I probably won’t buy Liros double braid again.

[Brocky II]

Any thoughts on the length of core bury after going through the eye? Some instructions I have seen are long fid, short fid, one rope diameter, and zero from Samson’s instructions for used double braid.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Brocky II

Any thoughts on the length of core bury after going through the eye? Some instructions I have seen are long fid, short fid, one rope diameter, and zero from Samson’s instructions for used double braid.

Given how diverse the instructions tend to be, I mulled long and hard about this.

The basic answer is that “easy” instructions make the core bury short.
Well done splices make the core bury longer and as a result more difficult.

I decided Samson Ropes and Brion Toss are two references I would be happy to rely on, so this would make the length of the core bury 7-14 Ø.

These are lengths for some online instructions found (Ø = line diameter). Some are pathetic with their specifications:

SAMPSON ROPE: 1/3 fid = 7 Ø
WES SPUR TREE EQUIPMENT: 1/3 fid = 7 Ø
MERCHANT JTS: “A little bit past" = approx 2 Ø
NAUTICAL ROPE: 2 cm
BRION TOSS: 14 Ø
SAILRITE: 14 Ø
GLEISTEIN ROPES: 1 Ø
MARLOW: 3 cm
NEW ENGLAND ROPES: 1 short fid = 8 Ø
SELMA: 1”
PREMIUM ROPES = LIJNEN SPECIALIST in 2012: 5-10 cm
PREMIUM ROPES = LIJNEN SPECIALIST in 2016: 10 cm
ENGLISH BRAID: “Past neck splice” (looks like 3 Ø)