Rigging over tight? To loose?

[daletournier]

Im starting to think there is some mystical ability one must have to determine correct rig tension.

The rigger that provided the stays said to do them very tight, they will stretch " the seldon stay tension utube said " as tight as you can without being a gorrilla) and another source said "intuitively tight".

My last boat was stayless, what a concept! And the Dale of todays "do them as tight as you can " is alot different to what the Dale of ten years ago would have done :-)

Im not convinced that there is no overtightened.

Thoughts???

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[StuM]

Stays or shrouds?

[Stumble]

You have gotten a lot of bad advice. Rigging should always be as loose as possible and still keep the rig in column and the right prebend. Just cranking down on the rigging more and more will just damage the boat.

I would really suggest taking a look at http://www.seldenmast.com/files/1416.../595-540-E.pdf

[daletournier]

StuM, I'll make it easy the wire things that hold the mast up.

Thanks Gary, I did watch the Seldon utube , I'll now read through the site you suggested. Ive read through a number of sites and they vary or are vague. Im not overly concerned about overtightening as I really dont think I could with two 12 inch shifters, its 11mm wire.

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[donradcliffe]

Once you have done a dock tune, you need to take the boat out sailing where you can get a 25 degree heel. After a bit of time on each tack, note whether the leeward shrouds are loose enough to flop around. If they are you need to tighten things up. Take a few turns on the leeward shrouds, tack, and check to see if the mast is straight and the new leeward shrouds have stopped flopping. Repeat as necessary.

[Hudson Force]

This topic brings to mind the 1940 failure of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge due to harmonic resonance in 40 mph winds.
There will be times during wind storms when the resonance vibrations of the mast will begin "pumping" and a loose rig will present a possible damaging shock load with this rhythm. There is also the potential of hogging the deck of a boat by tightening the rigging so that the mast is like an arrow drawn back on a bow.

I think that there is an acceptable median between these errors that follows Don Radcliffe's advice above. The rig should be tuned so that the mast is centered true and straight with the leeward shrouds a bit loose when sailing close to the wind with a significant heel. ....'but as Don stated, "not flopping". I tune to the standard of having the most tension on the upper shrouds, less on the forward lowers and the least tension on the aft lowers.

Straight can be well judged by looking up the sail track on the main, but don't forget to take a halyard from the masthead to an equivalent point on each rail to measure an identical distance as the mast can be straight, but not centered.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Hmm, how do I put this? Well, categorically I am not a fan of loose rigging. Period! Yes, tightening it can be carried too far. I've seen quite a number of busted up racing boats thanks there to. Which, usually such is attibutable to up & coming racing sailors with more hormones than brains, wisdom, or experience.

But for rigging to work properly, it needs to be snug at a minimum, on all points of sail. Since if it's loose on one tack or the other, it can befall or cause any number of (expensive) maladies.
Ever see a deck stepped mast trying to come adrift at it's base? Or spreaders moving of their own accord; up, down, sideways, or some combination of all three. Which is truly Bad Juju if no one notices this prior to tacking. That or before the next solid green wave sweeps the length of the deck. Meaning that the rigging needs to be tight enough for everything to remain in place without question. Otherwise, if you're "lucky", you'll be going aloft in Force 8 to re-seize the spreader tips so that the rig doesn't fail. Ow!

And yes, spreaders can & do come loose underway if the rigging is just "snug". As can other critical rigging components. Much as fasteners can in high vibrational environments if they don't have retaining mechanisims. It's the same exact thing.

Buy a Loos Rig Tensioning gauge, or fabricate a DIY version, & then calibrate it against the real thing if $ is that tight. Taking notes on everything, including & especially the settings on your boat (& others). They're fairly simple instruments. So why guess when it comes to your rigging? Getting it wrong, even partially, will surely flatline your vacation budget.

Think of a Loos Gauge as a way to check the "tire pressure" on your sailboat. You do have one of those for your car, right?

Edit: Quite a lot of rigging wire failures occur right where the wire enters the end terminals. Probably because this is a "hard spot" formed at the interface of one flexible component, & one inflexible one. Thus when the boat's subject to accelerations & decelerations, the fitting doesn't flex, but the wire wants to. With the end result of these cycles being exactly like what happens when you bend a coathanger back & forth a bunch of times.
But, if the rigging is tight enough not to be able to flex... it'll last a lot longer. On that I'll wager big.


MOD's: Can we make this a sticky? Pleeeease

[daletournier]

Ive tightened to what I feel is right but yet to test sail. But I may loosen off again and give the 2m ruler 15% load method ago as suggested in the article Gary put me onto.

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[daletournier]

Hi uncivilized, that's my point! Most I assume don't have a Loos gauge, as for this size rigging its quite expensive, therefore how are most doing it....the "it feels right test"....so far the only way I see is the 2m ruler option I mentioned in my above post.

Do you think an average bloke can over tighten by hand with to 12 inch shifters (7/16 and 3/8 wire)?

Oh, and nope don't have a car anymore, how cools that :-)

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[daletournier]

Sorry should of said while adjusting at the dock.

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[boatman61]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Once you have done a dock tune, you need to take the boat out sailing where you can get a 25 degree heel. After a bit of time on each tack, note whether the leeward shrouds are loose enough to flop around. If they are you need to tighten things up. Take a few turns on the leeward shrouds, tack, and check to see if the mast is straight and the new leeward shrouds have stopped flopping. Repeat as necessary.

Now this contradicts everything I've been told/learnt about rigging.. one of which is Never tighten the lee shrouds while underway as you suggest.. apart from the fact its kinda hard to tell if a mast is straight on a 15-25degree heel.
As for overtightening.. guess you guys are unfamiliar with the term 'Banana Boats'.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Do you think an average bloke can over tighten by hand with to 12 inch shifters (7/16 and 3/8 wire)?

I'd say yes on this. Since one typically tightens things up on the leeward side, when under sail. And so then on each tack after snugging things down a turn or so, the shrouds will stretch another small bit when the load from the sails comes onto them again. Thus this process repeated several times results in a rig that's bar taut.

PS: If you're a musician, you can tune rigs by ear. Especially rod rigging. And I've seen tuning forks used for this a couple of times. It's fun to mess with billionaire owners

[neilpride]

Some designs need a lot of tensión and others no, Riggers feeling with wire tensión its years cranking turnbuckles with diferent rigs, my 2 wire tensión gauges are hanging in a Wall with dust...25% in some rigs 30% in others or 15% in many...

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Some designs need a lot of tensión and others no, Riggers feeling with wire tensión its years cranking turnbuckles with diferent rigs, my 2 wire tensión gauges are hanging in a Wall with dust...25% in some rigs 30% in others or 15% in many...

That's the impression I get, most riggers don't use gauges, their elbow clicks when the right tension is achieved.

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[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Now this contradicts everything I've been told/learnt about rigging.. one of which is Never tighten the lee shrouds while underway as you suggest.. apart from the fact its kinda hard to tell if a mast is straight on a 15-25degree heel.
As for overtightening.. guess you guys are unfamiliar with the term 'Banana Boats'.

On some boats, especially large ones, & or large racers, it's either do it this way, or... With the boat dockside, slide the 100T hydraulic jack underneath of the foot of the mast. Pull out the spacers on top of the step so that you can lower the entire mast a few inches. Tighten the shrouds & stays. And then jack the mast back up & slip in the spacers in order to get it back to full height.
After which you then need to take her out saiing in order to see if all of the above steps have gotten the mast into the state of tune you'd like. And if not, then repeat them all. Which, 90% of the turnbuckles on such rigs are at the spreader tips, so... Don't you just love being a bowman Playing Peter Pan for endless hours to tune rigs.

All of this is pretty much because the rigging screws are under so much tension when the rig's even half way tuned, that they can't be turned. So one way or another the load on them needs to be temporarily reduced in order to do so.