Kites, Parafoils and Parasails - after a Demasting?

[estarzinger]

Say you have lost all your mast - can you fly any of these kite/para sort of things without any mast/halyard?

If so, how difficult would it be to handle (for a couple - 42' cat), and get down in a squall, and what angle to the wind could you sail (forward of the beam)?

question is just for my education. I was advising someone recently who lost their mast near the Galapagos, and the possibility of para/kites came up as a way (in addition to Jerry rigging options) to sail somewhere a mast would be easier to get. But none of us involved really knew much about them.

[MarkJ]

Hi Evans.

Thanks you for a good question!

I have a parachute anchor thats 18 feet in diameter.

I have wondered about people loosing the mast when short handed. Its pretty damn difficult to recover it from the sea and some folks have needed to cut it away immediately because it starts bashing a hole in the side of the boat.

The mast gone the spinnaker poles gone too! And all the major sail cloth on the boat. So what exactly could one make a jury mast with? And what fly off it?

So with my 18 foot para anchor I basically want to get it 9 feet above the water to fly it. As the deck is 6 foot up there should be no trouble making a 3 or 4 foot mast stump.

In trade winds I have no doubt theres wind to keep it up. But how far in front of the boat?Right off the bow, 30 meters forward??

Sailing angle... Definitely 150-to-150, maybe 120 but i am sure you'd slow down. And I doubt higher than 120.

I doubt you could pull it in for a squall. As its round I dont see how you could effectively spill air, either.

It would be fun to try it as an experiment and see how it goes. From galapagos 5,000 nms you have plenty of time to hone the details


Mark

[roetter]

Maybe it is time to have a kite-surfing "sail"as a backup? But only if you enjoy the kite surfing as well.

Tie yourself to the deck, launch the kite and your self to sail the boat.

[JPA Cate]

That is an interesting question! Some of the new kites are extremenly maneuverable. We've all seen people getting lots of air with them, too. But exactly how much motive power they'd provide a dismasted catamaran seems pretty difficult to calculate. Also, I'd think it would be exhausting work, watch on watch.......

Ann

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by roetter

Maybe it is time to have a kite-surfing "sail"as a backup? But only if you enjoy the kite surfing as well.

Tie yourself to the deck, launch the kite and your self to sail the boat.

Some spinnakers have a kite inside them so its just a matter of cutting it out...

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Also, I'd think it would be exhausting work, watch on watch.......

Ann

After being dismasted I think everything would be exhausting work! But the option is death....

[ctsbillc]

I love the concept of attaching the parasail to the deck and flying yourself.

The Germans did the same thing from their U-boats to give themselves greater visible range than the relatively low sail of the sub could give.

As I recall, an allied report on the system stated that "when an allied aircraft was spotted, The sailor on the kite would sound the alarm. The submarine would then crash-dive and the submariner on the kite would drown in the usual fashion"

[estarzinger]

After a little google . . . . I guess my question is . . . . how hard is it to do something like this:




Can you buy one of these 'standard'? How hard are they to handle? What wind angle can they sail? With a sewing machine could you turn your para anchor or spinnaker into one or is the shape just too complex/delicate?

[monte]

We have a parasailor on board. I can't imagine it being usable without a mast. We also have a Kitesurfer kite, it would be quite usable but at 6m2 pretty slow. We have rigged on on a hobie cat before and it gets along pretty well, tacks upwind as well. So yeah a 20m2 Kitesurf kite would work. You would attach it to the deck and it would be pretty much self tendering. It would fall out of the sky with under 10k wind though. You would need a standard 4 line bar which acts like a boom, ease it to depower. The bridle setup on kites is pretty intricate, there's no way you could jerry rig a spinnaker into a working kite. And old kite, bar and lines would set you back about 1 boat buck. I launched mine from the boat last week and it worked out ok. DDW you would have to continually fly the kite in figure eights to generate power, but off the wind a bit it should sit at the edge of the window and require less input.

[Cotemar]

Maybe in the near future we will not need mast anymore,
Rag Flapper and Stink Pots will mingle as the same sheep.

When a Stink Pot flys a kite they will be sailors.
When a Rag Flapper Sailboat has the kite down on the deck they will be a Stink Pot.

Sailboats will have no more worries waiting for a bridge to open as you go up and down the ICW.

http://project.kiteboat.com/design/

[ctsbillc]

"Can you buy one of these 'standard'? How hard are they to handle? What wind angle can they sail? With a sewing machine could you turn your para anchor or spinnaker into one or is the shape just too complex/delicate?"

I just did an article on new merchant freighters under sail for our club newsletter. The Skysail approach pictured top is reckoned to save 15 - 20% of the fuel bill. The sail is computer controlled, but I'm thinking it cannot be difficult, just needs the computer to keep the sail out the water when the wind drops. SkySails GmbHÂ*-Â*Home

Obviously, you need the wind behind you to get anything out of this approach.

What looked really nice is the JAMDA approach, with hard sails which telescope http://www.marinepropulsors.com/proc...2013/11B.3.pdf

[libramax]

I think it would be feasible, IF you had the kite on board and had practiced with it (deploying and retrieving onboard--though admittedly difficult to practice while you still have your mast and rigging).

I was looking into kite-powered boats a while ago, and it is feasible, but not an easy problem. I thought it would be something a hobbyist could build from a cheap old hull (Hobie cat for example) and a new kiteboard kite. I stopped my research when it became apparent that it wasn't that simple. Here are some links I found:

Peter Lynn Himself - Kites_For_Yachts Â*Â* (gives a bit of history)
Project Gallery | Kiteboat Project (a 2013 design, but now images don't load so not sure if the project is still active).

[libramax]

Looks like Monte did manage to rig a kite to a Hobie Cat--seems like a feasible project after all. I think you'd need to learn good kite handling skills first--probably why it seemed daunting to me.

[MarkJ]

I don't think its economic to have a kite on board just for the in case that you lose your mast outside motoring range.

All this expensive crap needs dual, at least, use.

My paraancor cost near $2,000 ... Thats one sh!t load of money... Are you going to tell em you buy that (or a Jordan) and but a kite as well!


Mark

[IslandHopper]

Some more info here.....

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...es-124892.html