Cattle Hitch vs Eye Splice

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Benz

You always believed that though there may be many ways to do a thing, there is always one way that is best.

yea, agreed. I guess I have gotten more tolerant over the years with other people doing things in a 'fit for purpose but not "current best practice" fashion'.

Originally Posted by Benz

I wonder if the length that was devoted to those passes was used for bury instead, how would the friction differ?

My very initial thought was that the long straight bury of the same length would be at least as well 'locked' . . . but then my second thought was that perhaps there is some benefit to having the two different sorts of clamping geometry.

IDK, is an interesting question, however, with lock stitching, it does not really matter. And the low load slipping is a quite hard thing (for me at least) to test analytically - slipping in general is a hard thing to get good repeatable numbers on - my test series on 'knots which don't slip in dyneema' gave me fits.

[tdboyd]

Bravo! KISS…

[Brocky II]

I used to use the NER Lock Stitch splice for the second eye of a friction hitch cord, a short, 24-30” , 8-10mm cord with an eye at each end. The object is to have the shortest buries possible so that the hitch cord is flexible for hitch tying. The first eye gets a locked brummel and short bury. The second eye might not have the end available to form the second locked brummel, like if doing with a cover. The Locked Stitch solved this easily, but now I do the rebraiding method to get locked brummels on both ends. Never had any of the LS splices tested but none ever failed in use.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Brocky II

I used to use the NER Lock Stitch splice for the second eye of a friction hitch cord, a short, 24-30” , 8-10mm cord with an eye at each end. The object is to have the shortest buries possible so that the hitch cord is flexible for hitch tying. The first eye gets a locked brummel and short bury. The second eye might not have the end available to form the second locked brummel, like if doing with a cover. The Locked Stitch solved this easily, but now I do the rebraiding method to get locked brummels on both ends. Never had any of the LS splices tested but none ever failed in use.

What's the "rebraiding method"? I can't imagine a way to get a covered eye splice (where the eye is fully covered) with a brummel.
It'd be a good trick to know.

[Brocky II]

Pass the tail through to form the eye, count two or three strands and unbraid. Split the strands in half and bring six strands on each side around the rope. There are different methods to braid, I use a four sennet that gives a round, rather than flat result, then reduce, taper, and bury. The first few I did weren’t pretty, but they only have to stay together to maintain the lock.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Brocky II

Pass the tail through to form the eye, count two or three strands and unbraid. Split the strands in half and bring six strands on each side around the rope. There are different methods to braid, I use a four sennet that gives a round, rather than flat result, then reduce, taper, and bury. The first few I did weren’t pretty, but they only have to stay together to maintain the lock.

I see. This is a new one to me. Thanks! Are there tests for these? what percentage of line strength do they retain?

If you need an even shorter splice, I've done a tuck splice in 12-stand dyneema that remained stronger than the line (it broke elsewhere) It was only about 2" long for a 5/16" diameter line. Time consuming, as each strand goes over 1/under 1, but fun to know about.

[Brocky II]

Originally Posted by Benz

I see. This is a new one to me. Thanks! Are there tests for these? what percentage of line strength do they retain?

If you need an even shorter splice, I've done a tuck splice in 12-stand dyneema that remained stronger than the line (it broke elsewhere) It was only about 2" long for a 5/16" diameter line. Time consuming, as each strand goes over 1/under 1, but fun to know about.

The rebraids tested similar to the standard method. I’m guessing the braid of the tail isn’t as important as the main rope as long, as it causes enough expansion to not slip out.

Would be interested in your method for the Tuck Splice, I’ve done a few in Samson’s 1/2” True Blue solid braid, using their instructions. Patience is definitely required! Not a big fan of the nubs that stick out, on the last one I did I was able to bury some of the last nubs in the middle.

There is also Samson’s Tuck-Bury Splice which they stae only needs one and a half fids of bury.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Brocky II

The rebraids tested similar to the standard method. I’m guessing the braid of the tail isn’t as important as the main rope as long, as it causes enough expansion to not slip out.

Would be interested in your method for the Tuck Splice, I’ve done a few in Samson’s 1/2” True Blue solid braid, using their instructions. Patience is definitely required! Not a big fan of the nubs that stick out, on the last one I did I was able to bury some of the last nubs in the middle.

There is also Samson’s Tuck-Bury Splice which they stae only needs one and a half fids of bury.

It's actually just like the tuck splice for 12-strand Regatta Braid, except that it's over 1/ under/1 instead of over 1/ under 2, and it's done with single strands instead of pairs.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Benz

Are there tests for these? .

The tests both I and Brion did on the rebraid had highly variable results - ranged from 55% to 85%. Probably depended on how evenly loaded the strands in the rebraid were.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

The tests both I and Brion did on the rebraid had highly variable results - ranged from 55% to 85%. Probably depended on how evenly loaded the strands in the rebraid were.

It must be hard to get even loading with bundles of half the rope volume each. The only rebraid splicing I've done was on underwater towing sled data cables: they come with a vectran winding for strength. You form an eye and re-braid the vectran bundles a yard back down the cable, but the cable's a lot thicker than the vectran, and the splice is pretty long.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Benz

It must be hard to get even loading with bundles of half the rope volume each. The only rebraid splicing

it is an interesting rope work question.

Might be fun for SWL to explore rebraiding options. There must be dozens of ways to rebraid 12 strands. I'm certainly not sure which method would give the most reliable even strand loading in a straight line pull. I have never explored it but I suspect there is a whole 'braid your own rope' community somewhere.

The "bringing half strands around each side" is another complication. Probably nothing clever to be done - just have to work it by feel after you make the first 2 braids - then just pull each strand by hand and try to get them even tension.

[Brocky II]

Should have made clearer, you split the twelve strands into two groups of six, bringing one group around on each side of the rope to be rebraided, no splitting of the strands themselves.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Brocky II

Should have made clearer, you split the twelve strands into two groups of six, bringing one group around on each side of the rope to be rebraided, no splitting of the strands themselves.

Yea, I know, Ive made a bunch of them, and broken a bunch that Brion made.

Not many instructions around - but I believe we we are generally talking about this splice approach

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-4AYV7jKRA

(not my fav youtuber because he knows less than he thinks he does, but he at least makes quite clear instructions).

[Benz]

^^ I had not encountered this before. What a time-consuming method of doing something simple! If you just bury the tails to make a plain loop and lockstitch, you get the same product in a quarter the time without all the shenanigans to get a brummel in there.
I have a fuzzy memory of Brion talking about this once and thinking: "no way even he would go to that much effort for so little gain!"

[Brocky II]

I go through the trouble because of the limited distance there is in a hitch cord, 14-16” for two buries, and it also has to stay flexible to tie a hitch.

Great discussion, I’m going to try to splice some 6mm single braid Technora cord with the Tuck Splice, just realized it splits the bury into two like rebraid splice.
Thanks for all the info!