Cattle Hitch vs Eye Splice

[bluefightingcat]

Originally Posted by psk125

Would chafe be a concern? Since the load, compared to the strength of the line, is minimal, using the hitch might avoid the point-loading that would happen if the line was spliced to the T. The hitch, spreading the dyneema out over the surface of the eye, might show less wear. If there is wear, either way, the hitches might be easier to replace. How are you going to get the lengths exactly right? What are the fittings at the other end?

The other end will have a turnbuckle. I have the old shrouds of the mast, so will try and make them the exact same length. Will use the turnbuckle to fine-tune.

Also considering that these will be forestay and shroud the chaffing should not be too big a concern.

[s/v Jedi]

About the weaving instead of Brummel lock: my old running backstays were done like that by a professional rigger. They have performed great for me but I think he just didn’t know better at the time. This was in 2005 and I agree that it’s a bit upsetting to see that practice still in use today (“always done it like that and never failed” argument I think but that ignores the question of wth they were thinking when they first did that and why continue doing it when it’s been shown that it serves no purpose....

[Brocky II]

Girth hitch, larks foot, tag, and barrel sling are some names for hitch shown, not a cow hitch, which only gets loaded on one strand.
The questionable splice is called a lock stitch splice by New England Ropes, which has instructions for it. I’ve always called it a Brummel, made sense if there is a locked, there must be an unlocked. They recently updated the instructions to lengthen the bury length.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Benz

it just displays an ignorance of how splicing is done.

I really doubt NER is ignorant about splicing?

https://www.neropes.com/fileadmin/us...ck_Stitch_.pdf

I honestly don't understand what the fuss is. Splice length is rarely an issue with runners or stays.

I personally would do a simple bury splice here like in the bluewave picture.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

I really doubt NER is ignorant about splicing?

https://www.neropes.com/fileadmin/us...ck_Stitch_.pdf...

So NER thinks this can replace a Brummel or stitching as a zero load lock. Yes, it is a little faster. Is it 100% secure against shifting? Maybe, but I just don't know.


Does it actually change the splice length... much? Both a Brummel, lock stitching (if extensive) and this add some strength, reducing the required bury length. How much is debated. But I know from testing that the bury can be a lot shorter if the lock is strong (but never Brummel only--that is weaker).



Interesting. I will follow this. I'm not sure under what circumstances the method would be better, other than a fast splice on something unimportant... but in that case I would just use a whoopee sling eye, which is fast and easily adjusted or removed.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by thinwater

So NER thinks this can replace a Brummel or stitching as a zero load lock.

hmmm . . . I don't think they believe that. I would think they would suggest that you lock stitch all bury splices including this one.

My impression is that this is as jedi described - a bit 'old fashion'. Still perfectly usable/reasonable. But also not any sort of marvelous development.

I have made a few, but never rigorously tested them. But by hand, while these tucks certainly add (some) friction, they definitely don't lock securely in the way a Brummel or sewing does.

The NER guys used to work pretty regularly with Brion - sad he is gone for many reasons, but just here it would be a friendly voice I could call to get the 'real story. My commercial testing lab in Texas just told me this was a previously common splice variation, with nothing particularly bad nor good about it. They don't use it in their own (very high-end) splicing work.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

hmmm . . . I don't think they believe that. I would think they would suggest that you lock stitch all bury splices including this one.

My impression is that this is as jedi described - a bit 'old fashion'. Still perfectly usable/reasonable. But also not any sort of marvelous development.

I certainly could be wrong, but...


... I don't see any reference to stitching. The purpose of a Brummel, for example, is to replace stitching. For comparison, the NER bury splice instructions recommend stitiching.https://www.neropes.com/services/spl...d-splice-bury/


They call it the lock stitch procedure (I believe) because the two passes serve as lock stitching.



Interesting.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I certainly could be wrong, but...

yea, I also could always be wrong.

But I would be surprised if you asked them directly if they would not recommend lock stitching. That is just simply normally recommended for pretty much all splices.

I guess it would be interesting to give this a try against the low load slipping issue. Pretty easy to test. I personally would not expect it to be a solid solution to that issue (without stitching). If I get some time I can just do something quick - but you and benz also could.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Benz

Who can stay calm when faced with such atrocity! At least I am taking deep breaths, the better to yell at the computer screen
. . .

It does not add strength, security, nor elegance: it just displays an ignorance of how splicing is done.

Nor is it shipshape in Bristol fashion...!

Love the passion, Benz. Didn't know you had it in you.

Fair winds... and clean, elegant splices,
LittleWing77

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Didn't know you had it in you.

Benz is awesome.

I really appreciate his attitude and approach.

[Breaking Waves]

on the 'locking' question - I made one and did some variable pulling on it.

I was a bit surprised it was much more resistant to the low load slipping than I expected. (3 tucks and then 28x bury - rather shorter than you would want in actual application but I was trying to encourage it to slip)

It is ofc not 'structurally' locked. It more like a 72x bury is locked simply by a lot of friction which takes load to overcome and then that load Chinese finger locks it. Put some load on this and let it settle/bed in and it would be more secure than I would have guessed.

I would lock stitch it in any real use, just because I think pretty much all buries should be and it still would not be on my short 'best practices' list.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

on the 'locking' question - I made one and did some variable pulling on it.

I was a bit surprised it was much more resistant to the low load slipping than I expected. (3 tucks and then 28x bury - rather shorter than you would want in actual application but I was trying to encourage it to slip)

It is ofc not 'structurally' locked. It more like a 72x bury is locked simply by a lot of friction which takes load to overcome and then that load Chinese finger locks it. Put some load on this and let it settle/bed in and it would be more secure than I would have guessed.

I would lock stitch it in any real use, just because I think pretty much all buries should be and it still would not be on my short 'best practices' list.

Yes, that is about what I figured, and about what I think. Knots are not structurally locked, just friction. Waterskiers common place a knot there as a lock, after the splice where it weakens the rope much less. But a few stitches would really calm my nerves.



I might throw on in a washing machine. I do know, however, that when playing with whoopee slings, you need to completely unload them AND push the cover down while pulling the core up.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

hmmm . . . I don't think they believe that. I would think they would suggest that you lock stitch all bury splices including this one.

My impression is that this is as jedi described - a bit 'old fashion'. Still perfectly usable/reasonable. But also not any sort of marvelous development.

I have made a few, but never rigorously tested them. But by hand, while these tucks certainly add (some) friction, they definitely don't lock securely in the way a Brummel or sewing does.

The NER guys used to work pretty regularly with Brion - sad he is gone for many reasons, but just here it would be a friendly voice I could call to get the 'real story. My commercial testing lab in Texas just told me this was a previously common splice variation, with nothing particularly bad nor good about it. They don't use it in their own (very high-end) splicing work.

Funny you should mention Brion...he had some fruity things to say about this exact thing over on his Spar Talk forum some years back. While his gift of expression was better than mine, his thoughts about this were exactly the same. RIP, Brion: You always believed that though there may be many ways to do a thing, there is always one way that is best.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Benz is awesome.

I really appreciate his attitude and approach.

Absolutely!

(That was me just teasing Benz a little bit. )

LW

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

on the 'locking' question - I made one and did some variable pulling on it.

I was a bit surprised it was much more resistant to the low load slipping than I expected. (3 tucks and then 28x bury - rather shorter than you would want in actual application but I was trying to encourage it to slip)

It is ofc not 'structurally' locked. It more like a 72x bury is locked simply by a lot of friction which takes load to overcome and then that load Chinese finger locks it. Put some load on this and let it settle/bed in and it would be more secure than I would have guessed.

I would lock stitch it in any real use, just because I think pretty much all buries should be and it still would not be on my short 'best practices' list.

I wonder if the length that was devoted to those passes was used for bury instead, how would the friction differ? In the shop I put a wrap of tape around the throat of a straight bury before putting in in the hydraulic puller, which keeps it from slipping until it's set. Once the splice is set, I lockstitch or whip, but if I want to pull the bury out, I have to bunch up the rope so it will release the tail.
Sometimes I make a quick and dirty sling out of scraps to lift a temporary load, in which case I just straight bury, tape, and use. That way I can pull it apart to splice around the next job.