Cattle Hitch vs Eye Splice

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Benz

f Brion talking about this once

Brion acknowledge to me that longer grommets with straight bury's doubled over, or tuck splice grommets would be better from a strength/functionality perspective - but that he much preferred the esthetic of this - looked 'more right' to him.

He was doing this development and testing at 'peak brummel' craze, when people thought it was the bee's knees. His 'circle of people' did some great work figuring out how to make it with only one end and with this rebraid. However as we have all learned more about dyneema it has lost much of its gloss and is less used. Still useful here or there when you are trying to jam a splice into too short a place or into a middle - I rarely use a regular brummel but I do use stacked (like 5) brummels for occasional things.

I will have to do some research on braiding techniques and options. It is something I have never looked into. I always figured it was dumb to take a machine braid that the manufacturer worked so hard to perfect and create even tension and wreck it. But there may well be techniques which are much better than others at maintaining DIY tension evenness - would be interesting to know as background which are best and how good/bad they actually are.

Benz - was thinking of you yesterday - am about to make a huge toggle shackle - 50,000lbs proof load. Just got the pin stock in yesterday.

Im making 3 samples - the left one here is a conventional button, the right one has stronger loop, and then the toggle one.

[Benz]

^^ I think that while making strops and soft shackles will never go away--it's just too useful--it will be superceded in the DIY arena, as it has in the racing arena, by covered loops. Surely you're encountered the Harken loops with the while cover and magenta fleck. In recent years, Marlow has made available many diameters of SK99 "Lashline", along with dyneema cover options, so that similar strops and loops of ultimate strength and elegance can be easily made, and they have a chart published with formulas: X passes of X diameter gives X breaking load.
The Harken loups are SK75, and were heat-treated under steam pressure while loaded to set them; the SK99 ones need no such treatment, and I often make one on the fly right on someone's boat, often onto a padeye or fitting.
I simply can't imagine anything better coming along, but then, I couldn't imagine improving on Amsteel back in the day. Here's to the people smarter than all of us who keep inventing better ways.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Benz

a chart published with formulas: X passes of X diameter gives X breaking load.

Do you have a link for that? I have made and tested and used these but was not aware of this marlow chart/page.

I agree they are terrific for loops/strops. But for 'shackles' (eg something you can open and close) You need to use a metal toggle - right? or do you have an alternative solution. I like toggles but don't think they are right for some solutions - and in this one in particular we preferred the whole shackle to be floating and the necessary size metal pin makes it sink.

.......

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

The tests both I and Brion did on the rebraid had highly variable results - ranged from 55% to 85%. Probably depended on how evenly loaded the strands in the rebraid were.

This was using Dyneema single braid, correct?


I did some chafe testing of Dyneema, and one of the things I learned is that how much strength was lost depended on the nature of the damamge. Like corrosion, general corrosion and focused pitting have different effects.



General wear does not weaken the rope very much. But concentrated damamge to just a few strands weakens the rope disproportionately, because the rope stretches so little they don't share the load well. The few weakened strands failed, followed by a cascade. I bet the same thing is happening here. Nylon, by comparison, is easier to splice, because stretch helps even the load.


By extension, I'd bet that Dyneema double braid splices that use the cover (rather than just the core) add very little strength. UV and chafe protection, but not strength. But I have never seen any testing.



Interesting.



[I worked with Brian on several splicing projects as well. Educational and fun.]

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by thinwater

This was using Dyneema single braid, correct?


I did some chafe testing of Dyneema, ....]

yes dyneema.

I did last week make a bunch of strops and shackles for our local fire fighters - used Technora some with Nomex protective sleeves. Was sort of interesting, slightly different test results and design criteria - a lot less slippery, and less compressive loss, which affect design.

And yes your chafe testing was wonderful - insightful but also confirmative of some things which had puzzled me previously (like why is this piece so weak when the damage does not look so bad). I followed up your work with some on my own 'cut 1/4 way thru these 4 strands' type of testing just to confirm what I understood from your work. There is probably still a lot more to know about various types of possible damage, but it can be hard/slow testing to do.

I should really fire up my own test bench efforts again - enough developments and questions since my last round of intense work to make it potentially worthwhile. But I am currently focused on a hard fitness grind - doing bike intervals 5 days a week which wipes me out - I lost so much fitness the past covid year, trying to get it back.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

it is an interesting rope work question.

Might be fun for SWL to explore rebraiding options. There must be dozens of ways to rebraid 12 strands. I'm certainly not sure which method would give the most reliable even strand loading in a straight line pull. I have never explored it but I suspect there is a whole 'braid your own rope' community somewhere.

The "bringing half strands around each side" is another complication. Probably nothing clever to be done - just have to work it by feel after you make the first 2 braids - then just pull each strand by hand and try to get them even tension.

Hi everyone
I am just catching up with this thread.

I have tuck spliced 12 braid (Tiptoe for mooring lines, and Dyneema chafe cover), but never re-braided.

Before I have a play with this, I have a very basic question. Is re-braiding actually necessary? A long bury splice relies on the “Chinese finger trap” principle. As far as I understand, this is dependent on the length and diameter of the bury, not on the braiding.

Have any load tests been done with unbraided buries? Are they actually weaker? This is not something I know anything about.

It would be much easier to get even tension without braiding, as the lengths of the individual strands can be exactly matched after being buried (before the ends are tapered and fully buried). I think getting the tension even is critical and this is near impossible to do well if re-braiding. I haven’t grasped why a Brummel lock is necessary, which doesn’t help. Why not simply lock stitch?

To me Rigging Doctor’s method seems not only to be a complete waste of time, but inferior as well. The difference in his lengths of strands following re-braiding shows the tension is a long way from being even. I think it works for the “Rigging Doctor” as he is using a 9mm dyneema loop, which even if poorly made would well exceed the strength of the rigging it is attached to.

SWL

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Is re-braiding actually necessary?

At least some short amount of braiding is necessary IF you want to complete the Brummel lock. If it is just simply straight strands then there is no lock.

Now, it is a perfectly reasonable question whether we need or want the Brummel - would not two simple straight bury's be fine. And the answer to that would depend on how short you want to be able to make the pieces - if you are willing to use a 'doubled loop' then doing away with the Brummel and just using long straight bury's makes sense. But there are potential applications where something short single looped with a lock would be desired and then you need to do enough braiding to create a solid lock. Tucks are a way to avoid the brummel altogether while still being short and perhaps that is better than rebraiding but Idk because idk how good rebraiding could be.

Personally, I am just interested/curious in understanding braiding options for general knowledge, without having a specific application in mind. I'm curious what the best technique is, and then how good it tests. If it tests consistently 85-90% that would make it a potentially useful technique to consider, but if it tests 50% then I can mostly write it off.

In 3 strand the 'long splice' is a viable technique, and it is essentially a 'rebraiding' .

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

At least some short amount of braiding is necessary IF you want to complete the Brummel lock. If it is just simply straight strands then there is no lock.

Now, it is a perfectly reasonable question whether we need or want the Brummel - would not two simple straight bury's be fine. And the answer to that would depend on how short you want to be able to make the pieces - if you are willing to use a 'doubled loop' then doing away with the Brummel and just using long straight bury's makes sense. But there are potential applications where something short single looped with a lock would be desired and then you need to do enough braiding to create a solid lock.

Yes, the Brummel would just slide without at least some braiding. If just one lock is used though I understand it is primarily to stop the tail sliding out when under low load. Even then, stitching is still required to ensure this does not occur under any circumstances. I know several locks contribute reasonably to strength with short buries, but how effective is just one lock compared to simply lock stitching?

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Personally, I am just interested/curious in understanding braiding options for general knowledge, without having a specific application in mind. I'm curious what the best technique is, and then how good it tests. If it tests consistently 85-90% that would make it a potentially useful technique to consider, but if it tests 50% then I can mostly write it off.

I will have a go re-braiding tomorrow and report back. My only benchmark for “success” though is if the strands are still of equal length at the end. That is a fairly crude measure, but it is a starting point. Rigging Doctor’s strands ended up very different in length using his technique.

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

In 3 strand the 'long splice' is a viable technique, and it is essentially a 'rebraiding' .

Why not tuck splice the dyneema strands rather than re-braiding and burying? This is done for eye splices using other types of slippery 12 strand single braid for the fishing industry resulting in a very short looking splice. Each strand is woven individually. It is time consuming, but re-braiding would be as well.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

t how effective is just one lock compared to simply lock stitching?


Why not tuck splice the dyneema strands rather than re-braiding and burying?

lock stitching is not supposed to be loaded, really only to prevent low load slipping - so it really does not help with the 'shortest' question where the stitching would potentially get loaded if the bury was cut way down (I have broken stitching trying this). One lock can absorb some load successfully.

and yes, the tuck would be the normal/current approach; and in a way, it is also a style of braiding itself. I don't have a good handle on what the pros and cons would be. Tucking is quite good, except as you say time-consuming.

Just doing a quick google, the para cord groups seem to have explored braiding quite a bit. I did not immediately find load testing but would not be surprised if there was some already out there somewhere.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

.......

I don't think it's online: and maybe they only release it to their stockists (like a jealously guarded trade secret? I dunno). I've only seen a paper copy in the shop. Maybe I'll ask the Marlow salesman about it next time we speak.

[Benz]

^^Also, to your other comment, a metal toggle is the only closure method I know that's strong enough to be worthwhile. I use hardwood toggles all over my boat, because I can make them quickly on a lathe, but they're pretty low-load. So yeah, soft shackles are probably here to stay.

[s/v Jedi]

What I don’t like is a choice for looks over function. When you can make it look good at optimal function then it’s better but not in this case where strength and reliability is given up for it, even when oversizing Dyneema to compensate.

So I just use a longer loop made the right way out of thinner Dyneema and double it up. When used towards a pin/shackle you can also pull the straightened loop through the eye/grommet/thimble to be attached and then secure both ends at the pin. I use two of those for my main sheet attachment to spread loads over the boom.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

What I don’t like is a choice for looks over function.

I believe we all here can agree on that - Aim for both, usually can achieve both, but pick function if you have to.

I just use a longer loop

agreeing with Benz's comment above - sometimes give a try to the 'multiple continuous very thin strands' approach (eg a DIY harken loup). They are neat. Marlow SK99 Lashline makes them super easy and strong (but you can also just use thin amsteel). Really the very best way today to make any length loop/grommet, but especially a compact one.

........

[s/v Jedi]

I’ve been using Spyderline for 15 years or more and don’t see much difference other than the polyester cover vs a coating or a stronger variation of the fiber.

I’m not sure I like a covered loop... I prefer to see what’s inside and how it’s wearing, aging etc.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Spyderline .... don’t see much difference

hmmm . . .seems rather different to me, but whatever

I’m not sure I like a covered loop... I prefer to see what’s inside and how it’s wearing, aging etc.

experience suggests it is wearing/aging just fine if the cover is still intact.

as always - many different ways to do things. Just thought you might like to consider something different.

........