Any Updates on Synthetic Rigging ?

[Cotemar]

s/v Jedi,

Can you show pictures of your LifeLine setup?

Mark

[daddle]

I use 5mm Spectra (Amsteel) for cruising lifelines. (3/16"). I like to use several turns of dacron covered Kevcord, or whatever, strong 2-3mm line thru a Brummel and thimble because I don't like the way Spectra wears at tight places. And knots hold better in covered line. A few turns make a nice tightening 'tackle'. Some tidy hitches and tape secure it. Easy to adjust.

Several fewer parts to polish

[tamicatana]

I'm all synthetic on my boat, and my shrouds are 8+ years old (I trailer so they don't live in the sun). Every line on my boat is some form of Dyneema (HMPE), including trampoline lacings, lifelines, bobstay, martingales... and of course running rigging.

I can offer this: Sized appropriately, there is no creep to speak of. What appears to be initial creep is what is known as "CONSTRUCTIONAL STRETCH." It is effectively the 'nesting' of the fibres as the braid settles under tension. Once you're retensioned a time or two, it'll stop. I haven't retensioned my shrouds in I don't know how long.

To me, it sort of defeats the purpose to have mechanical tensioners with HMPE line. Lashings do the job far better, with less weight and less likelihood of failure.


Here's some good info:

Brion Toss. Brion Toss Yacht Riggers, Sailboat Rigging He's pretty traditional and has completely embraced HMPE rigging. His books and vids are the bomb. I hated splicing until I discovered Toss, and with his instructional material, I've saved I don't know how much in rigging costs.

Hampidjan, the manufacturers of Dynex and Dynex Dux
/ Brochures

L-36.com. Look around, there's lots of kewl stuff, but he's been doing some destructive tests and has very good splicing instructions L-36.com

[memelet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I went completely metal free so not even thimbles. My 2003 lifelines are still okay today.

Initially I did the same. But like you say tensioning was hard so I went back to using thimbles.

-barry

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

s/v Jedi,

Can you show pictures of your LifeLine setup?

Mark

I'm normally quick with pics but this time don't seem to find any. This was one of the first projects aboard.... before I started documenting them.

So let me describe it instead:

splice an eye in the new lifeline. Put a stitched sailmakers whipping on the other end. Now you can thread it through the stanchions from aft to forward. At the bow pulpit, tie the lifeline to the pulpit using a bowline. Use a stitched seizing to secure the bitter end so that the bowline can't loosen itself.

Now at the back you have an eyesplice. You need thin 1/8" or so Spectra to create a lashing. Tie the lashing to the eyesplice using a bowline and thread the other side through pushpit or gate stanchion. You can't create the lashing and tighten it because there is no thimble in the eye splice, so the thin lashing will jam in there. Instead, you need to tension the lifeline with another line that is tied to the lifeline and led further aft to a block or the dock but in such a way that it is exactly in line with the lifeline itself. A couple guys hanging on it from the dock works well. When they start making grumpy tiring sounds, quickly thread the lashing wraps and tie it off before they let go. I used a block and winch instead.

cheers,
Nick.

[delmarrey]

I've made an attempt to build a straight pull fitting on amsteel but the stuff is so slick that even as tight as you can get it, it still pulls out of a crimp w/ferrel.

First I tried a cable crimp but it cut some of the fibers, so went with a custom ferrel with a smooth transition. It held pretty good up to around 500# but still pulled out. In the basket there is 60' of chain and other chunks of metal.

Anyone know if there is an adhesive that will bond to amsteel. It's like Teflon. Epoxy is like wax to amsteel.


.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

I've made an attempt to build a straight pull fitting on amsteel but the stuff is so slick that even as tight as you can get it, it still pulls out of a crimp w/ferrel.

First I tried a cable crimp but it cut some of the fibers, so went with a custom ferrel with a smooth transition. It held pretty good up to around 500# but still pulled out. In the basket there is 60' of chain and other chunks of metal.

Anyone know if there is an adhesive that will bond to amsteel. It's like Teflon. Epoxy is like wax to amsteel.

.

Delmarrey, why not a splice? Don't put metal fittings on high tech fiber where not needed...

ciao!
Nick.

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Delmarrey, why not a splice? Don't put metal fittings on high tech fiber where not needed...

ciao!
Nick.

Size! Cosmetics! Experimentation! The plastic Terminators are priced high and disproportionate/incongruous.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

Size! Cosmetics! Experimentation! The plastic Terminators are priced high and disproportionate/incongruous.

If size of the Brummel splice is an issue, you can tie a bowline and lock the bitter end.

Cosmetics... I love the sight of splices, knots, seizings, lashings etc.

Experiments are important. How about the same potting epoxy as used for steel wire?

I would never use plastic terminators!

cheers,
Nick.

[tamicatana]

delmarrey,

I'd go to the spartalk forum at Toss' website and see what they think about your application/pictures. Personally, I'm not understanding why you don't go with a lashing, talk about 'traditional,' how traditional is that?

The closest thing I've seen to what you have is my Equiplite swivel fitting. The line has a spliced eye that's pushed up through the center of the fitting. Then a small machined slug of aluminum is fitted into the eye, which is then drawn back into the fitting as the line is tensioned, and the slug jams in the swivel, preventing it from coming out.

I don't think there's any epoxies that work, because if there were, the above wouldn't be done (epoxy blob way easier and cheaper than bits of machine aluminum)


Ergo, you might could get away with splicing round that brass bit in the picture some kind of way, if you made sure all was fair and chamfered.

edit: the terminators only look plastic because of the quality of their finish, which is generally some sort of anodising

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

Size! Cosmetics! Experimentation! The plastic Terminators are priced high and disproportionate/incongruous.

Your approach is like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. People have already thought this through. If you're trying to fit synthetics to traditional rig terminations, look around the colligomarine.com site and read their info/papers about how to work with Dyneema/Dynex Dux. Lashings and spliced loops are the way to go, with thimbles as needed.

BTW I disagree with the advice to use knots in uncovered HMPE, even with lock stitching. Splices are much stronger, sleeker and are very easy to do once you figure out the locked Brummel and tapered bury. Colligo has a PDF with splicing instructions you can download.

[s/v Jedi]

For experimenting: try a stitch and seize. I am confident it will create the smallest and sleekest loop and outperform any kind of fitting. It will even outperform a bowline and only a splice will be an improvement. Just get that waxed thread and needle out !

Keep in mind that all stays and shrouds used to be seized, rope or steel wire!

ciao!
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

BTW I disagree with the advice to use knots in uncovered HMPE, even with lock stitching. Splices are much stronger, sleeker and are very easy to do once you figure out the locked Brummel and tapered bury. Colligo has a PDF with splicing instructions you can download.

Oh I agree, but there was indication that there wasn't enough room for the length of the splice. I have a polyester cover on my lifelines which also makes the splice very tough. I put bowlines on one end to be able to remove the lifelines easily.

With lifelines one must also think about how to quickly remove them like for hauling a MOB back in etc. Most will be able to quickly cut a lashing, but check it out just in case.

ciao!
Nick.

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by tamif27

delmarrey,

I'd go to the spartalk forum at Toss' website and see what they think about your application/pictures. Personally, I'm not understanding why you don't go with a lashing, talk about 'traditional,' how traditional is that?
Not into traditional, I'm a metalsmith!

The closest thing I've seen to what you have is my Equiplite swivel fitting. The line has a spliced eye that's pushed up through the center of the fitting. Then a small machined slug of aluminum is fitted into the eye, which is then drawn back into the fitting as the line is tensioned, and the slug jams in the swivel, preventing it from coming out.
This is basically the same but used a FG plug epoxied in place. But it destroyed the ferrel allowing the line to pull out.

I don't think there's any epoxies that work, because if there were, the above wouldn't be done (epoxy blob way easier and cheaper than bits of machine aluminum)


Ergo, you might could get away with splicing round that brass bit in the picture some kind of way, if you made sure all was fair and chamfered.
There is a minimum radius for each size according to their web sites, but yet they show these new set up's (picture below). I may just go with small SS thimbles and keep an eye on them. I still have all the turnbuckles from the old wire safety lines. The gates I just replaced with the wire.

edit: the terminators only look plastic because of the quality of their finish, which is generally some sort of anodising

So, the terminators are black anodized. Should have known, just ass-u-me'd they were plastic since the Dyneema is a synthetic. That's why they're $56 each, X 16 ends = $856 + $120 for 1/4" Amsteel. Almost as much as all wire replacements.
This certainly changes my plan! To make the end fittings it cost me $8 each. with SS thimbles it'll be even less.

[foolishsailor]

This is an interesting and timely thread.

I am due to replace all my standing rigging this year and have a few questions...

1. What is the cost comparison, not including fittings, for changing over. The last costs discussed were when this thread was in 2008

2. I have a Profurl furling system on my head stay. Has anyone replaced their headstay with a similar setup? I am concerned about chafe, especially hidden chafe

3. I also have an inner stay that I use for hank on sails, I saw the post showing hanks designed for the material, does anyone have experience with this as I am concerned with chafe here as well

4. Chafe seems to be a theme here...how does one dress the rigging where it passes through the spreaders?

5. Last question, I use my back stay for my ssb. Is there any issues mixing materials? I.e. can I replace the section for my sub with new wire and then change out the top and bottom ends with synthetic. I am assuming I don't need my isolators as the synthetic doesn't conduct rf?

Lots o questions, thanks