Any ideas about how i can add hot water?

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SILENT-PE...MAAOSwMtxXtHur

And yes actually it was very difficult to find again - if you look again though someone even has a used unit available for 200

THXs, looks OK

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SILENT-PE...MAAOSwMtxXtHur

And yes actually it was very difficult to find again - if you look again though someone even has a used unit available for 200

Did some digging
Is actually more or less the same as DENQBAR

https://www.denqbar.com/tpl/download...comparison.pdf

Only different color=== Hahaha CHINESE BLUE is more expensive

[fgd3]

If you don't want to add another fuel system, have limited space, and have a small water storage capacity this is the simplest solution.


https://www.amazon.com/RISEPRO-gallo...18703224&psc=1


Fabbian

[Shaneesprit]

I have plenty of fuel diesel propulsion and Propane cooking, small output Solar 148w ( 2 small house batteries) lights / equipment.
Solar bags don’t work, well not when arriving to the boat in the dark, and not in the beginning and end of the season, I have one and rarely found it useful.
Also have a heater from the coolant of the propulsion engine - also useless to me as I mostly want heat while on the mooring or anchor.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

I have plenty of fuel diesel propulsion and Propane cooking, small output Solar 148w ( 2 small house batteries) lights / equipment.
Solar bags don’t work, well not when arriving to the boat in the dark, and not in the beginning and end of the season, I have one and rarely found it useful.
Also have a heater from the coolant of the propulsion engine - also useless to me as I mostly want heat while on the mooring or anchor.

I am a curious man
Just read https://htcca.co.uk/st-25/
Amazing
Yes, everybody can do it on a big boat but on a small boat it´s an art

The challenge is always the energy, no matter where it comes from.
Plenty of Diesel.I asume You using a Sillette drive leg.
148 W solar.... I calculate that by average 6 hours with 900 W/Day. That is really not a whole lot to work with
160 W solar

*For me it’s a no for weight and I don’t need the power, only heating

Well, heating water and space with propane has a lot of weight penalty besides the inconvenience.

This LTS Gen is the lightest GEN I heard of . Incredible almost half the weight of the Honda 1000. The difference is almost 500 WH/40 amp of Lithium battery.

LTS CT 157 = 17,6 Lbs/8 Kg
Honda 1000 = 29 Lbs/13 Kg

Dimension (L x W x H) 425x230x380mm

Output Voltage 240V
Rated AC Output (KVA) 230 - 12v DC
Continuous Power 700W
Max Power 900W
Current Rating 3.7A/8A

Smart throttle sensor automatically adjusts the engine speed to precisely match the load, which allows the generator to run quieter whilst increasing fuel efficiency and lengthening engine life

Tank 2 L.... so with a 5 L tank You will go a long way

This Gen makes the same power then Your solar panels during the whole day in 1 hour @ 18 Lbs+fuel
Why is this not an option for You ?
That will open the door to a lot of options
The Chinese Diesel heater works very well and You already have plenty of Diesel and the other day Lucky made a demonstration with the water heating and that was close to instant hot water. He said he waiting on another type of water heater from China. I suspect it will be somes of them webasto engine heater clones. But a little electric energy it will definitely take.
I think those evacuated tubes will have very good results as also this Chinese Diesel water and heater and You will only need something to top the temperature off by the most to make it a 24 hour reliable solution. According to my info those Chines Diesel heaters take only 4 amps for the fan once they are fired up and the glow plug some 12 amps draw durung 2-3 minutes. the heat comes from the Diesel fuel.
Did You see his last demonstration with thermosiphon ?
The evacuated tubes work best with a little pump. Together with the thermosiphon effect that should be very efficient combing both with an all over small foot print and weight.

[Shaneesprit]

Yes Silhouette Leg and 25HP Beta - over sized in my opinion but swapping it out for something smaller doesn’t save enough to make it worthwhile. Although I do want to move the Diesel Tank to the Bow -

The Gen is not an option for myself because
1) it’s to much messing around, still don’t need the power, batteries have never been an issue,
2) still weight
3) the solar is fitted and required as it runs a Bilge pump year round, boat is never removed from the water, or rain, it’s just moved to an isolated tidal mooring ( that happens to be in my dads back garden ) need 6 meter tide to escape.
4) propane could run the fridge, but I tend to use it as a cool-box.
5) Propane provides the heat for cooking, it’s amazing what she ( Partner ) can cook with 2 rings and a grill, better than most pubs / restaurants ( I eat out about 200 - 400 times a year if I include lunch and dinner maybe more ) so something home cooked or more likely cooked on board is very important. Certainly in October and November I didn’t eat a single thing that wasn’t cooked by some sort of Chef - in a pub, restaurant or hotel.

I have the Chinese Diesel heater and will fit that for heating, - haven’t decided on a good location yet, at least when I fit it I can remove the Heater from the Beta
I brought an Propane Water heater but I am not going to fit it
If later there is an Air heater that can heat water and it’s a straight forward swop I might up grade later

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

Yes Silhouette Leg and 25HP Beta - over sized in my opinion but swapping it out for something smaller doesn’t save enough to make it worthwhile. Although I do want to move the Diesel Tank to the Bow -

The Gen is not an option for myself because
1) it’s to much messing around, still don’t need the power, batteries have never been an issue,
2) still weight
3) the solar is fitted and required as it runs a Bilge pump year round, boat is never removed from the water, or rain, it’s just moved to an isolated tidal mooring ( that happens to be in my dads back garden ) need 6 meter tide to escape.
4) propane could run the fridge, but I tend to use it as a cool-box.
5) Propane provides the heat for cooking, it’s amazing what she ( Partner ) can cook with 2 rings and a grill, better than most pubs / restaurants ( I eat out about 200 - 400 times a year if I include lunch and dinner maybe more ) so something home cooked or more likely cooked on board is very important.

I have the Chinese Diesel heater and will fit that for heating, - haven’t decided on a good location yet, at least when I fit it I can remove the Heater from the Beta
I brought an Propane Water heater but I am not going to fit it
If later there is an Air heater that can heat water and it’s a straight forward swop I might up grade later

Yes a little over sized but better then under sized and it doesn´t hurt +/-
Next size down is 9 kg lighter and only 3 cyl. All other 2 cyl

3.)WOW, 6 m tide to escape

5.) Hahaha, don´t fix it. Home Sweet Home has the best taste

The Diesel heater ? Yes, I would also make provisions for the hot water option. It needs a little more meditation but I am sure with EGR the problem of hot air in summertime is resolved. I am counting on it.
What I suspect is that Lucky is waiting for the Eberbaecher Hydronic Heater Heater D5 C which is also manufactured in China. I m sure it will be cheaper but not cheaper then the air heater and I would think more sensitive to failure.

If using the propane only for cooking it will last a long time.

Your limits are Your fuel tank and Your batteries and here are Your limits of power production and demand if no generator is desired.

So first there is the option of a second alternator up to DC 120 amp of shelf
https://betamarine.co.uk/seagoing-alternator-options/

Second option is the PTO Shaft Extension
https://betamarine.co.uk/seagoing-accessories/PTO

Here is a high output DC alternator that will give You 260 amp @ 80% output @ 1800 Shaft RPM @ 15-1800 US$ depending on mounting type

https://www.ecotechalternators.com/w...t-14V.pdf_.pdf

That comes at a weight penalty of 44 Lbs

It requires 6 Hp / 12 Lb-foot torque to do so but Your Beta Marine 25 makes much more @ 1800 while using less then 1 L /hour

betamarinepnw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/B25-Engine-Data-Sheet1.pdf

However when You take a look at the power requirements of the alternator and match with the performance data of the upper limits of the engine where the torque levels are coming lower above 3000 RPM ?
That means from 3000 to max RPM of the engine You will loose significant torque. To make a good match I would calculate optimum prop performance to torque range and not to Max RPM/HP of the engine which also will give You a better fuel economy = more range with the same fuel tank size.

That would be the situation in case of a direct drive of the PTO shaft.
How ever if You use a mechanical clutch that allows You to disengage the alternator when propulsion is in neutral then the problem is resolved..... in combination with lithium batteries in my opinion the best.

Or just taking the route of a belt drive with a small reduction to compensate for the loss of torque on the engine in the range above 3000 Rpm but that would definitely need a serious BMS protection in case of motoring extended time and continuous charge.

I am sure You agree that alternator will put an incredible amount of charge in the batteries in a very short time. I would be more concerned if the battery type and C charging rate can handle it.

The noise level of this combination would be more pleasant then a small gas engine that would also come with the added safety issues of gasoline.

Another option is available of shelf from Beta Marine
AC power with TRAVEL POWER. They don´t specify output in watts but I asume it´s not only for the purpose of an electric tooth brush

http://betamarinepnw.com/beta-marine-accessories/

Those are the limits I know of but they would give option of big fridge /freezer,water maker, induction cooking, Aircon, etc and all the power requirements of a big boat and the rest is just a question of comfort levels in relation to weight.

As the marinized Kubota D902 is very reliable and service friendly with parts world wide I consider those options valid and a demonstration that also small boats can have enough power for high living standards on board.

Hahaha, and what are Your limits ? How far do You wanna go ?

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by warrior 90

So first there is the option of a second alternator



Second option is the PTO Shaft Extension

https://betamarine.co.uk/seagoing-accessories/PTO



> mechanical clutch that allows you to disengage


Or just taking the route of a belt drive with a small reduction

Wow yes, this approach is right up my alley!

One engine only on board, enabling both effective propulsion **and** high C-rate electricity production on a small liveaboard boat that only rarely sees shore power.

Personally I would use the generated electricity for running even a large freezer (IMO eutectic holding plates as well as evaporators),

as well as high-gph watermaking

rather than powering either of those mechanically off the PTO.

The weight issue is nicely counterbalanced by being able to go with a much smaller / lighter LFP bank, little or no solar windage up top, and plentiful sweetwater with no need to carry big heavy tanks fo it.


> marinized Kubota D902 is very reliable and service friendly with parts world wide

that being a **really** critical design goal afaic

_____
So, couple questions:

How hard would it be to run the **propellor** off the PTO? Or is there a better approach to make it clutch-disengageable?

That is not needed for the HO alternator(s), since with a Wakespeed VR you can fine-adjust the mechanical load via current output control, or eliminate it completely when maximum propulsion is needed (kill-switch at helm).

But when on the hook, disable the prop, tune the VR to the engine rpm/torque point, optimise for either max C-rate to minimize runtime, or when charging holding plates or making water for a couple hours, go for low fuel consumption per hour.

____
What do y'all think would be the "maximum real-life" HP output in that last scenario?

In theory, 1 horsepower = 746 watts, but

ballpark in real life seems to be each electric kW requires around 2HP. . .

Note talking DC only, the only visible AC will be inverter output, and that as little as possible.

I plan to keep non-essential mod con devices to a minimum, at least in the early stages.

[Shaneesprit]

Hi
I think I will let Warrior answer that one,
But fridges are a mod con and motors require huge starting current.
But I have another reason for replying and that is maybe people should state their boat size in this discussion? Warrior ?
Mines only a 25ft Cat mainly weekend use occasionally a week and in the UK 🇬🇧

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

Hi
I think I will let Warrior answer that one,
But fridges are a mod con and motors require huge starting current.
But I have another reason for replying and that is maybe people should state their boat size in this discussion? Warrior ?
Mines only a 25ft Cat mainly weekend use occasionally a week and in the UK 🇬🇧

actually the 12v fridge units don't require high in rush currents.

My current is 29 ft my last was 24 ft both monohull .

[john61ct]

I think he meant cranking the ICE being an issue?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I think he meant cranking the ICE being an issue?

ok I missed that . Didn't think that cranking the ice on our little boats took that much.
I can crank my volvo with a U1R-9 AGM SLA .

[john61ct]

Yes, not saying they were right.

Plus of course refrigeration is a mod con, my point was the more essential ones have higher priority.

When some live camping on their sub-30' boat, and others feel they can't live without a laundry machine and electric kettle, we end up talking past each other sometimes.

[warrior 90]

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrior 90 View Post
So first there is the option of a second alternator
Second option is the PTO Shaft Extension

https://betamarine.co.uk/seagoing-accessories/PTO

> mechanical clutch that allows you to disengage
Or just taking the route of a belt drive with a small reduction
Wow yes, this approach is right up my alley!

* One engine only on board, enabling both effective propulsion **and** high C-rate electricity production on a small liveaboard boat that only rarely sees shore power.

Personally I would use the generated electricity for running even a large freezer (IMO eutectic holding plates as well as evaporators),

as well as high-gph watermaking

rather than powering either of those mechanically off the PTO.

The weight issue is nicely counterbalanced by being able to go with a much smaller / lighter LFP bank, little or no solar windage up top, and plentiful sweetwater with no need to carry big heavy tanks fo it.


> marinized Kubota D902 is very reliable and service friendly with parts world wide

that being a **really** critical design goal afaic

_____
So, couple questions:

How hard would it be to run the **propellor** off the PTO? Or is there a better approach to make it clutch-disengageable?

That is not needed for the HO alternator(s), since with a Wakespeed VR you can fine-adjust the mechanical load via current output control, or eliminate it completely when maximum propulsion is needed (kill-switch at helm).

But when on the hook, disable the prop, tune the VR to the engine rpm/torque point, optimise for either max C-rate to minimize runtime, or when charging holding plates or making water for a couple hours, go for low fuel consumption per hour.

____
What do y'all think would be the "maximum real-life" HP output in that last scenario?

In theory, 1 horsepower = 746 watts, but

ballpark in real life seems to be each electric kW requires around 2HP. . .

Note talking DC only, the only visible AC will be inverter output, and that as little as possible.

I plan to keep non-essential mod con devices to a minimum, at least in the early stages.

__________________________________________________ ___________________________

Well before going to the next step a little introduction and words.

The question was ... Any ideas about how i can add hot water?
And the given case was a 32 feet FP Maldives with 3000 KG displacement and OUTBOARD PROPULSION. That is why I insisted so much on the Honda 2000 Portable generator topic.
This Maildive was designed in the early 90ies for max 6 persons sleeping on board. I guess in today´s terms that is a little crowded and requires a very sporty attitude.
However when the owner asked for some HOT* water ideas in the year 2019 it seems like the FP Maldive can not only be used for only sailing around the bay but also for cruising with a smaller crew or even be a sweet little cruising Cat for coastal for a couple that has not half a million $$$ to spent. But that requires some serious challenges for maintaining the characteristics as a light and fast CAT that is said to be able to keep up with 47 foot CATS.
Of course one can not compare a Volkswagon Bus with a 34 Class "A" motor home ... WHILE BOTH HAVE THERE ADVANTAGES & DISADVANTAGES !!!!!

So while the FP Maldive is quiet a timeless and beautiful design inside the layout and features for comfort a truly frugal and and not ideal for extended living on board. However with today´s technology and of the shelf solutions this can be changed and HOT WATER is one of the main challenges. As hot water is one of the main features for living on board the immediate question is and what else is desirable to upgrade to the same level of comfort without changing the sailing characteristics of the boat and to find budget friendly steps with a secured risk for the desired results. I believe everybody reading this topic has seen this opportunity and how to proceed and and if done in a progressive sequence the value in case of putting the boat up for sale is also always present.

But now back to HOT WATER
I read things like....
* Hey Riki
I have a Maldives 32 as well. I use a solar bag left on deck to heat up. If it's not sunny enough I add from a kettle. I hang the bag on the mast above the winch. The tube goes to a deck fitting thru to the shower spray head fitted to the ceiling. Under the floor grill I have a float switch bilge pump which pipes it out.
Simple, easy, no weight added, Works perfect
Well, of course it can be done that way. You can also add from the kettle but it might not be that simple and so easy. Of course You might not believe me.
Well, how about asking the Ladies what they think about PERFECT ?
Maybe that´s why some of the Ladies are not too thrilled about this whole sailing and live aboard thing.
Well, perfect on a small boat is very complicated but if somethings like hot water and a decent head with a shower and a little privacy is missing that is no fun and reminds me of the epoque of the slaves. Now boys, I don´t know about You and it´s also none of my business. Some enjoy to sail alone but I am not one of them.

Now that was a commentary on the side without any intention to be more.
I also hope that was an inspiration about the right temperature for🍃H(♥)T WA🌷ER🍃.

And to add some cosy colours here are some photos that got me inspired the other day about this challenging project of up grading a small boat that will certainly also add to the value of the boat and not only to the comfort level.

I guess that is the factory version of 1990
Yes sorry, the photos are at the end !!!!


No, we are not talking about throwing a ton of $$$ at the boat and regards the weight. Yes we are adding on to the dry weight of a boat that is supposed to sleep 6 persons.
Now that was the case of the FP Maldives.


HOWEVER now we are talking about a Summer Twins 25
... here again this website to get a better idea https://htcca.co.uk/st-25/

So first of all I start to realize the smaller the size the more important it gets to know the details of the boat because it´s virtually fighting for every inch and lbs. But in this case I asume there is another new factor to consider.

* 2) still weight
* 3) the solar is fitted and required as it runs a Bilge pump year round, boat is never removed from the water, or rain, it’s just moved to an isolated tidal mooring ( that happens to be in my dads back garden ) need 6 meter tide to escape.

I interprete that as ....BETTER A SMALL BOAT THEN NO BOAT

Another limit I am trying to set is the economical sense for an upgrade. One thing is a better boat and everything else might be just a more or too expensive boat.

And another component I would like to add to the mix is that such an up grade should be with in the limits of a person that has fair skills but is not an expert in every sense. Of course throwing a ton of money on it, the boat will fly to the moon but let´s try to be reasonable and realistic.

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

Hi
But fridges are a mod con and motors require huge starting current.
But I have another reason for replying and that is maybe people should state their boat size in this discussion? Warrior ?
Mines only a 25ft Cat mainly weekend use occasionally a week and in the UK 🇬🇧

Well, I hope I captured the idea. So let´s start with this project and see what can be done and hopefully one or the other idea will be usefull.

We already talked about the Hot water in general and as the main topic of this thread. Next step would be the comfort level on board. And after that comes the integration of the individual components in a budget friendly system with secured risk and the sequence of progressive steps.

Nº 1 fridges are a mod and motors require huge starting current.
Well, this is true but You have a very good power plant and the only question is how to use it. Further and in general I also wanna use this point to confirm that the limit of power will also be the limit of comfort level.

* Originally Posted by warrior 90 View Post
So first there is the option of a second alternator
Second option is the PTO Shaft Extension
https://betamarine.co.uk/seagoing-accessories/PTO
> mechanical clutch that allows you to disengage
Or just taking the route of a belt drive with a small reduction

[QUOTE=john61ct;3049352]
Wow yes, this approach is right up my alley!
One engine only on board, enabling both effective propulsion **and** high C-rate electricity production on a small liveaboard boat that only rarely sees shore power.

Yes I believe this is a fascinating concept not used very often and IMO undervalued as this particular case might prove.

* Personally I would use the generated electricity for running even a large freezer (IMO eutectic holding plates as well as evaporators),

Of course and that might be even the most efficient way but I would estimate it goes against the spirt of such an upgrade on the aspects of budget friendly, ease of installation and question of service friendly.

So please have a look at the nice and practical portable top loader fridge/freezers of latest design and technology and also take a look at the floor plan of the boat to find a good place. I would put my top loader as a slide out in ther box under one of the sitting area chushins pending which side on weight distribution at a later moment. This area is most likely used as food storage anyway and if posible the best side would be preferable the one depending on which direction the top opens and how to have a good airflow for cooling compressor.

However installation would be secured by the frame and conection is a simple 12 V cigarrette lighter plug. This is also very service friendly and in this particular case also very energy efficient. Content could be cooled prior to taking it to the boat.

Further... with front loader a lot of cold air escapes and usually with top loaders a lot of capacity is lost because You need a practical way to get the things out from the bottom without first emptying the whole food. So here is DOMETIC with there latest designs of Dual zone compressor units of the CFX series that I think have a very effective way of slide racks to take care of this inconvenience. I have not seen anything like it yet. They are also supposed to be the only ones that cool down to -8 F (-22ºC) while all the others go only to -0 F temp. That is important for ice cream. Of course there are others that are cheaper and while there are some very rugged ones in all metal casing we need to choose the one with the best weight ratio for volume. So all is pending on evaluation of Your eutectic holding plates as well as evaporators. .......It was my understanding till now the compressore type units of latest design are the most efficient

YTUBE > DOMETIC |CFX 75DZW Dual Zone Powered Cooler

https://www.dometic.com/en-au/au/pro...75dzw-_-139574

John let´s go right away to the power production and let´s talk about all the issue like water making later., OK ?
Well with Lithium batteries there is no more voltage sagging and that takes care of eventual high start up amps required that were mentioned as thet can support a higher discharge rate then Lead Acid batteries.

* The weight issue is nicely counterbalanced by being able to go with a much smaller / lighter LFP bank, little or no solar windage up top, and plentiful sweetwater with no need to carry big heavy tanks fo it.
Yes, this could certainly have a big impact on battery size calculation as also regards to the weight issues with sufficient water on board.
> marinized Kubota D902 is very reliable and service friendly with parts world wide
that being a **really** critical design goal afaic

_____
So, couple questions:
How hard would it be to run the **propellor** off the PTO? Or is there a better approach to make it clutch-disengageable?

Yes not manual like I thought in the beginning but with a magnetic coupling like automotive AirCon compressor style. Has a lot less weight and indestructible and with a simple kill switch at helm that would give total freedom of use, control of noise level at anchor and is total avoiding all problems that I mentioned of issues with best match RPM and torque while motoring. Is most likely also the cheapest way with max results.

https://www.nationsstarteralternator...ed-p/ws500.htm

* That is not needed for the HO alternator(s), since with a Wakespeed VR you can fine-adjust the mechanical load via current output control, or eliminate it completely when maximum propulsion is needed (kill-switch at helm).

* But when on the hook, disable the prop, tune the VR to the engine rpm/torque point, optimise for either max C-rate to minimize runtime, or when charging holding plates or making water for a couple hours, go for low fuel consumption per hour.

The variables are tempting
Can we get away without the Wakespeed VR ?
What would be the difference in functionalities to optain the same results ?
____
* What do y'all think would be the "maximum real-life" HP output in that last scenario?
In theory, 1 horsepower = 746 watts, but
ballpark in real life seems to be each electric kW requires around 2HP. . .

Well, I would say the Wakespeed could be adjusted to regulate/optimize power demands of the alternator while motoring, especially when torque curve comes down over 3000 RPM.
Interesting little surprize box. First time I hear about it.

* Note: talking DC only, the only visible AC will be inverter output, and that as little as possible.

Of course I agree unless AirCon is desired. All other loads could be easy handled by the inverter.
Also everything electric for clean, light weight and easy installation.

Well, I wanna stop here. That is more then plenty for digestion at the moment.

[john61ct]

There are plenty of ways to explicitly moderate the alternator load, that is current output while leaving the voltage at the desired setpoint.

Triskel's pioneering inTEGrel system allows for dynamic variation, coordinating against the power needed for propulsion in realtime keeping the diesel optimally loaded.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ii-207549.html

Using Wakespeed WS500/APS AP500 requires human adjustment, less granular.

Balmar MC-614, and Grasser's VR even more so

with A2B and B2B DC-DC chargers following up the rear.

I can't see how the ability to scale alt output current up and down could ever be optional,

plain off/on is never going to fly with a high power source capable of inflicting overcurrent damage on your LFP and interfering with effective propulsion.