Air conditioning brand

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by dlentz

AV,
send me an private email and I forward the service manual to you. (It's too big to attach here.) It's very detailed. dlentz at horizonaire dot com

I sent you an email.

Robert

[Seafarer7]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

…
Regarding Frigomar and Velair, they are pretty much the same unit, Velair is closer in price to the regular ac brands. The fan unit is the main difference, frigomar has a rotatable blower, Velair has a enclosed fan, which makes it slightly more bulky. Power usage figures appear the same. Frigomar appears to have a better control box, and features, this was a marginal difference at best, and not worth an extra $2k.
….

A source at UFlex informed me the two may have once been the same company.
He mentioned Velair is stainless steel and the only one of the two that comes standard with a wifi remote which enables you connect and control it remotely (ie away from the boat).

Please do update us on your install and the performance of your Velair i16k

[Seafarer7]

* duplicate deleted *

[flee27]

alaskanviking. Have you installed your AC yet? I for one would love to hear your feed back on the unit.

Foster

[alaskanviking]

Good Morning,

not fully installed yet. Unfortunately its become another typical life sucking tear the boat apart and fix 5 other things kind of boat project.

i had to change the location of the install to the pilotcouse nav seat. found a lot of damaged/rotten wood in this cabinet, due to sealant drying up in San Diego and now the window frame leaks. temporarily fixed the big gap on one side of the window frame with some SIKAFLEX. had to tear that cabinet apart and replace the side. completely encapsulated the whole area in fiberglass and epoxy. currently working on the last bit of framework in the cabinet

directly underneath of the ac cabinet is drawers for the pilothouse and a drawer at the end of my bed. the bed drawer area had a ton of unused space, like 2/3's of the space. space was roughly 12'H X 22"W X 30"L, Drawer was ~9-10" long. cut the side of this space out into the closet and built an insulated Plenum to connect the ducts. had to cut out all the support structure, cleats, drawer slides ect, and make new stuff after i fiberglassed the entire space. i can assure you this was an insanely uncomfortable and tiny space, my feet would go to sleep after 10-15 min. 3 layers of glass above, 3 on sides and bottom, then replaced reinforment beams (diffrent location) epoxy filets on all corners with reinforcement tape. epoxied foam pieces in place to create the plenum, with a layer of fiberglass inside. Currently i have to epoxy filet the corners, add reinforcement tape and another layer of cloth & mat, and fiberglass the inlet duct from above and tie it into the plenum. then i can cut the duct holes and paint inside.

under the plenum area was a weird alcove in the engine room, that was difficult to use. i suspect it used to be where the batteries were kept on this boat, but I'm not positive. i did verify that if i cut that bulkhead out under the plenum to the engine room, and build a bulkhead closer to the engine, that there is more than enough room to move the water heater here, which is a much better spot. that will require similar framing removal, glasswork, reinforcement ect. the plenum area and ac cabinet were 10+ hours of glasswork so i expect this to be difficult, thankfully it doesnt have anything to do with running/installing the AC other than the ducts will be in the way of glasswork. hoping to get everything done so i can paint all at the same time.

the duct register into the pilothouse and bedroom are difficult. all the MSI duct boxes are just the wrong size to fit. new plan is to do the same as i did with the plenum and inlet. use glassed foam board and marine plywood, since they both only need 1 or 2 easy panels to enclose the areas. will cut the duct hole and connect to the plenum after. have to measure and verify sizes again for the teak register to make sure everything is correct in the bedroom. have to patch some old holes to the lazarret and engine room, from the old diesel heater ducting

duct holes into the salon have been cut and are ready. i found that the tabbing on the bulkhead inside the closet had delaminated or wasnt glassed in well. the deck prism was leaking so i glassed some cloth overhead to patch and plug the hole. its going to be mostly an equipment/electronics space now so i don't need and never did need a deck prism in the closet. have done the initial repairs to the tabbing, and some glass, but i need to get more glass cloth and tape to tab this correctly. the under bed areas and salon settee where the ducting goes through needs to be painted with epoxy bilge paint to ensure any condensation doesn't damage wood again.

i freely admit that i tend to overbuild stuff, but after repairing all the damaged wood i wasn't taking any chances. duct is insulated and shouldn't condensate but glass work is cheap compared to having to cut into and redo all this if it did.

should be ordering the pump after I get done with this exercise at work. have the hose routs mostly marked out, but have to cut a hole into the lazarrett for the discharge. having difficulties sourcing the s/w hose. seems everyone uses the HD reinforced clear vinyl hose, but the good hoses i should use 193 or trident 196 are difficult to get at a decent price. many of the ac manufacturer install videos use the reinforced vinyl hose, but it lets light in and lets gunk grow which i don't like. the electrical should actually be the easiest part to install on this.

I was not thinking it would be this much work honestly. work work gets in the way a lot as well. for this project that means I'm doing plumbing, electrical, HVAC, woodworking, and fiberglass. currently on plan revision "S" i believe. anticipate/hope to have all the rough in and framing work done by the end of the month, depending on how the remaining glass work goes. probably will have to use the heat pump before i get to use the AC this year, sigh! For those of you with old boats this is what installing new ductwork on a boat that didn't have ac looks like. I fully understand why it costs $2500-$5000 to install an AC, the ductwork is a pain unless your swapping out a unit.

[flee27]

Wow. I am exhausted just reading about your efforts. Sounds like you are doing a great job. Hopefully you will be rewarded soon with a job well completed. And I am. Sure if feels good to get some of the non a/c related things fixed also.

Keep it up and looking forward to reading about your success story and some details on how the a/c performs

Thanks
Foster

[randydandy]

AlaskanViking - how did the AC install turnout? Any update on how well the Velair unit works?

[Shanachie]

One issue this thread doesn't mention is the availability of service.


When you buy a unit and install it yourself, you need to make sure the manufacturer has service people all over who can come to your aid if problems arise.


Surprisingly, many manufacturers do not. This means that if something goes wrong with your unit, you have to uninstall it from your boat and ship it back, partly or wholly at your expense.


That is a hell of a lot of work and some $$$ to boot.


For this reason, I bought a Webasto 12K platinum for my boat. Good support network. Works great. Cools a Catalina 320 in hot Florida quickly. Installed in a box in a cockpit locker, it makes little noise other than the fan.


In this size of boat (beamy and open), I got away with one large vent in the galley and no ducting to other spots on the boat. The aft cabin cools almost as quickly as the main cabin.


Ducting would take up tons of space otherwise devoted to storage.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

One issue this thread doesn't mention is the availability of service.


When you buy a unit and install it yourself, you need to make sure the manufacturer has service people all over who can come to your aid if problems arise.


Surprisingly, many manufacturers do not. This means that if something goes wrong with your unit, you have to uninstall it from your boat and ship it back, partly or wholly at your expense.


That is a hell of a lot of work and some $$$ to boot.


For this reason, I bought a Webasto 12K platinum for my boat. Good support network. Works great. Cools a Catalina 320 in hot Florida quickly. Installed in a box in a cockpit locker, it makes little noise other than the fan.


In this size of boat (beamy and open), I got away with one large vent in the galley and no ducting to other spots on the boat. The aft cabin cools almost as quickly as the main cabin.


Ducting would take up tons of space otherwise devoted to storage.

But that isn’t a variable frequency drive, which means that it consumes much more energy. A brand like Velair seems to have good support in Florida; don’t know about elsewhere. Out there in the cruising grounds are no factory reps and you need the local guy who will work on anything.

The reason for having the option to only cool a hut is to keep cool at night at minimum energy use. This is all for using battery power instead of running a genset.

[Palarran]

I know the OP has already made a decision. I just want to add that I've been very happy with the Marinaire Heat Pumps (3) I installed 7 months ago. For how much we use them and the price, and considering power is simply not a concern, they are great.

It is interesting the concern about power loads. Unless your going to try to run one off your battery bank during the night is seems kind of senseless. I have a single 16,000 BTU unit that can cool my entire 56' catamaran at night with 85 degree outdoor temps. It only takes 5.5 amps at 230v. The only concern I have with power is that if I needed to run all my a/c's at the same time it wouldn't exceed the 16 amps available on many Greek village quays, which mine won't. Otherwise, I always have excess power.

[captain ladd]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

A quick update. I pulled the trigger on a Velair 16k today. Was 2400 with shipping. That's more expensive that the other brands but the variable vfd controlled compressor has a range of 4000-16000 BTUs. That has the possibility of significant power savings, which makes it worth it in theory. Would have gotten the larger 21k but it was too tall.

I would have loved to get the chiller. But at $10k just for the unit it was too much. Would have needed a couple air handlers at ~$1500 a pop, however routing the hoses would be far easier.

I really looked hard at the various units. Frigomar and Velair just looked like the best fit and most efficient for my boat. Regarding Frigomar and Velair, they are pretty much the same unit, Velair is closer in price to the regular ac brands. The fan unit is the main difference, frigomar has a rotatable blower, Velair has a enclosed fan, which makes it slightly more bulky. Power usage figures appear the same. Frigomar appears to have a better control box, and features, this was a marginal difference at best, and not worth an extra $2k. Looking at the manuals they both are using the same material and charts. There isn't a lot of difference between the manuals and it's easy to see they're both cut from the same cloth. I'm pretty positive the units or the important parts are built at the same factory and rebranded. Standard units of different brands are ~ $1700-2000, the Velair was $2300, and the quote I got for the Frigomar was ~$4000. To be fair I saw the same Frigomar unit from the same importer in Florida on Amazon for $3600 but still I didn't see any feature that was worth the extra $1000-2000 difference.

For both there isn't enough out there to get a good gouge on quality, durability ECT. I found a little but not enough to give a happy fuzzy feeling like you can with other brands. The manuals are both sub par. Definitely some English translation issues and lack of details. I believe these are 120 or 230v, but most places selling these don't show any voltage and the place I got mine said 120 which I realized after the fact. Would have preferred 230v. However poring through the manual and the little knowledge I have on VFD's I suspect you can plug either in, the VFD converts it to DC then 3ph. VFD's are a common working solution through out industry. I will know for sure when I receive the unit later this week.

Where did you buy your velair from?

[alaskanviking]

www.iMarineUSA.com. there was one or two others that had a similar price but i couldn't get ahold of them to get a shipping quote or verify they had units in stock. i marine answered the phone.

AC was $2,261.93 Shipping was $220.00

That price was in March 2020, may have changed since. It was the last unit they had, and everything was harder to get then.

[angus99]

AV, any update on your Velair install? Does it meet your expectations?

Looking to hear from anyone using these.

[s/v Jedi]

I wonder if the Velair units come with the raw water circulation pump?

Also, why are the 230V versions so much more expensive? They have them in stock so it’s not a special order thing…

[angus99]

My understanding is that a separate seawater pump is needed, albeit a smaller one than any of the competitors I’ve read about.

Also curious about the CFM output on these units: ~290 on the Velair vs at least double that amount on others.