Interesting read from one of our fellow female sailors.....

[Sandero]

If you are disturbed by any aspect of a vendor's business practices then simply don't buy. Your reason is all that matters. The interesting aspect is that these people blogged about their decision. I see nothing wrong with that. On the other hand...customer experience reviews are not very reliable, random and can deceiving.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

I read the sequence of events somewhat differently. The couple had picked a training program that ticked many of their boxes, but the husband was already having doubts about this one. She let her husband take the lead, or he took it anyway, who knows, and the salesperson addressed him only. Suddenly, she's the invisible adult. The more invisible she is, the angrier she gets.

To write that "her widdle fweelings got hurt" could be taken to be extraordinarily *adjective of your choice* ranging from insulting, through demeaning, to, possibly, downright stupid.

The fact that she felt moved to write about it serves as a reminder of the imbedded female chauvinism still in the world. For some, it is a clarion call to action of some kind, but to me, it is only a reminder.

The woman's solution to her perceived problem was logical. She voted her wallet elsewhere.

No one on the sides away from the median will change anyone's mind here, as has been seen in so very many threads. Please, people, try and keep it polite. Or argue the opposite to your true position, you just might find giggles abound.

Ann

Hi Ann, "imbedded female chauvinsism" if im reading that right you are saying its still a mans world? and there a lack of equality.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion but that dosent make it right! The world i experience dosent suggest that you are. Sure, there are guys that are chauvinstic but i dont see that as a majority, and secondly if you think women cant and arent equally predjustice against guys, then i believe you are mistaken. Just because its not socially acceptable for men in this arena to complain and become the victim dosent mean men are always treated fairly or just!

Just by making a statement like the above im sure some will try to judge" hes been burnt or has a women issue" i hear this when i voice my opinion that isnt politically correct.

The world isnt perfect, never will be and both genders can and do display prejustice, but regularly singleing guys out as the only gender that can show predjustice gets tiresome. As always the pendulum swings to far, this isnt the 30's,40'or50's etc.

I make a point of voicing my views in this area and are entitled to do so, regardless of how many rocks get thrown, i believe more men should express their views regarding these subjects but the political correct bullying that takes place silents many.

With respect Dale.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by landlockedsquid

Actually I did think it through. She didn't buy the course because her widdle feewings were hurt, and I don't care. But some people are pious and need to make a statement and tell everyone about it, and I still don't care. They had been thinking about it for awhile, so apparently they had decided this was the best one. But because there widdle feewings got hurt they will get one they didn't think was best. Their call. And I still don't care.

You are being disingenuous. If you really didn't care you wouldn't have taken the time to respond in the first place, let alone mock her for being openly unhappy that she was poorly treated for being a woman. Perhaps you think she should have sucked it up and kept it to herself because that's the lot of women in life: seen not heard?

And you still care enough to be still be mocking her even when doing so makes you look that much more . . .


A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground you would never try to refloat it.

[landlockedsquid]

Originally Posted by Adelie

You are being disingenuous. If you really didn't care you wouldn't have taken the time to respond in the first place, let alone mock her for being openly unhappy that she was poorly treated for being a woman. Perhaps you think she should have sucked it up and kept it to herself because that's the lot of women in life: seen not heard?

.

The only thing I care about is being sucked into a thread that was grossly misrepresented.

This is my response to your post. It was said much much better than I could ever say it, but it explains my thoughts on the matter perfectly.

Originally Posted by weavis

I am laughing Ann, Honest.

Look at this: https://www.google.es/search?q=knitt...w=1366&bih=599

Tell me how many men you see in the search?

Then read this and it may give insight as to why people who try to be honest in their thinking and advertising are demonised and hung out for shame.

The Origins of Political Correctness

Pure equality can never happen because the sexes are different. I dont demand a woman holds the door open for me and want to be treated a certain way... I will take my chances on what happens. There will always be respect and consideration for the other person regardless of the sex, its called basic human decency.

Where it balances is with the cheque book. If a woman wants a product and feels demeaned or patronised she goes elsewhere. You know, it happens to me too from businesses and it has NOTHING to do with anything other than I dont like the person or the company...

I have always been an equal opportunity person. One of my best friends and colleagues in medical emergency was the most gorgeous sexy and feminine of women who could stand shoulder to shoulder in any circumstance or difficulty and retain her dignity and professionalism to the n'th degree. She proved herself as I had to prove myself and we forged a 4 year working relationship that was a joy to be a part of.

It is what it is. The second we make everything on the lowest possible common denominator, we join in the lie of Political correctness. Some people are chauvinists, some are silly, some dont think and some dont like women. Its the way it is.

As stated, if you dont like the product dont buy... Forcing someone to advertise a different way is forcing them to do what YOU want. Let a person be what they are and economics will sort them out.

The law forces people to accept, for example, that marriage is no longer confined to male/female relationships. It now legally can be same sex couples. The law however, as much as advocates for the new legal unions push, can never make some individuals like it. It is not a requirement that everyone not only accepts the legality of same sex marriage but should be enthusiastic about it... The same with taxes, the same with... etc.

We are in grave danger of losing out to common sense and truth if we push our own agenda and make everyone conform to the same base line for our personal preferences.

In saying that, I would be first in line if they made it mandatory that everyone own a catamaran...

[bletso]

Originally Posted by landlockedsquid

Cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Boy, you sure showed him, deciding not to purchase the course so YOU could advance yourself.

Not at all.. There are other venues and companies who can help. I would have and have done the same. I have with few exceptions have found good alternatives

[GoingWalkabout]

As for white females being upset about a brochure that doesn't have pictures of African Americans. I can understand this. I was in a different part of the country and was looking for a salon for a treatment of my blond hair. The Only salon I came across had pictures of African American women models. Rightly or wrongly I kept walking since I assumed they didn't have the expertise in dealing with my hair type but rather specialized in other types of hair treatment.

Perhaps I should have gone into the salon and demanded that they have a more representative display of photographic models. Telling them, don't you know that there are a lot of white women looking for blond hair treatment. I am sure if I had dared say anything like that I would have been yelled at, cursed and told to get my skinny white a..... out, you mother .......... white b.........

Personally I think all those French pleasure boat builders should be sued for not making handicapped accessible boats. Just a totally arrogant and able bodied chauvinistic attitude driving these boat builders to ignore handicapped people.

I was having drinks after a conference in New York and had a younger women say to me how wonderful it was to see a female who was so accomplished in such a male dominated industry. I looked at her and said politely, I never think of gender in my business. If anything I am intellect prejudiced. I judge people on their intelligence. I find that I am treated equally in business because I treat myself as an equal. It is my attitude and self awareness that leads to equality of treatment.

I demand nothing from others, I demand nothing from "society". All that I demand is what I demand of myself.

I am who I am and I make no apology for it and I demand of no one acceptance while non acceptance or ignorance is like a water of a ducks back. It matters not.

[Carraiadimare]

Wow, this is going very far! It seems this guy who wanted to sell the book was unpolite and a bit idiot; in Italy, dispite to the fact that most of us try to act like 'macho', everybody knows that no decision is to be set without woman agree, mother, girl friend or wife.
But there's a strange sound in the intention to name diferences as discriminations; I mean there is no doubt a man and a woman are different and the best is from the union of their differences not from their elimination; same to be said for races.
I'd not feel bad for this experience of the book seller: if he talked only to the man, it is probably because he went for the weakest side!!


Inviato dal mio iPad utilizzando Cruisers Sailing Forum

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Carraiadimare

Wow, this is going very far! It seems this guy who wanted to sell the book was unpolite and a bit idiot; in Italy, dispite to the fact that most of us try to act like 'macho', everybody knows that no decision is to be set without woman agree, mother, girl friend or wife.
But there's a strange sound in the intention to name diferences as discriminations; I mean there is no doubt a man and a woman are different and the best is from the union of their differences not from their elimination; same to be said for races.
I'd not feel bad for this experience of the book seller: if he talked only to the man, it is probably because he went for the weakest side!!


Inviato dal mio iPad utilizzando Cruisers Sailing Forum

Now THIS my friend, is common sense.

[Tayana42]

If you have ever shopped for a car (or a boat) as a husband and wife you will have seen chauvinism in action. In my experience sales people, mechanics, tradesmen, etc talk to me and try to ignore my wife. This is stupid because she is the one who manages our finances. She is smarter about money than I am. Even when we tell a salesman that the car is for her and even if I defer to her by not answering and turning toward her most salesmen talk only to me. When this happens we walk away and find someone else to buy from. Yes it is still far too frequent in the USA today.


S/V B'Shert

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Rock-Head

Maybe he's simply focusing on a target demographic. When I think about the number of female recreational boaters (as previously described) I've met, I can count em on one hand and still have a finger left over. Take that same comparison and apply it to "people of color", yeah I could count em...

Zero.

That is not a racist comment. Just an observation.



Sent from my SM-N900V using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Finally.

Someone who gets it. I'm so tired of the gender and race card, it's so played out. We're only hearing one side of the story, and most people are ready to hang the guy as a misogynist racist selling an inferior product - why? Suddenly his product is crap because he didn't look her in the eye? Did she ask questions? The only way the seller knew her husband was a potential buyer was because he walked up and asked questions. If she hung back and didn't say anything, why should he risk angering the husband by paying attention to the wife when she's not involving herself in the convo?

Just because his materials don't show a rainbow of people and the precise number of females required to pass muster? What's next? Let's pass laws so the CG must board every vessel and ensure there are the correct number of people of every ethnic group represented or the captain of the boat will be fined in violation of the "Rainbow Boating Law."




How about basing the merits of the salesman on his knowledge of the product, and the quality of the product on just how comprehensive and easy to learn it's materials are? THAT seems a logical criteria for basing one's decision. Not some arbitrary requirement to include pictures of an Ethiopian right next to an Inuit on the deck of the boat. That fake crap is sooooo annoying!

Political correctness is STILL running amok!

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

Finally.

Someone who gets it. I'm so tired of the gender and race card, it's so played out. We're only hearing one side of the story, and most people are ready to hang the guy as a misogynist racist selling an inferior product - why? Suddenly his product is crap because he didn't look her in the eye? Did she ask questions? The only way the seller knew her husband was a potential buyer was because he walked up and asked questions. If she hung back and didn't say anything, why should he risk angering the husband by paying attention to the wife when she's not involving herself in the convo?

Just because his materials don't show a rainbow of people and the precise number of females required to pass muster? What's next? Let's pass laws so the CG must board every vessel and ensure there are the correct number of people of every ethnic group represented or the captain of the boat will be fined in violation of the "Rainbow Boating Law."




How about basing the merits of the salesman on his knowledge of the product, and the quality of the product on just how comprehensive and easy to learn it's materials are? THAT seems a logical criteria for basing one's decision. Not some arbitrary requirement to include pictures of an Ethiopian right next to an Inuit on the deck of the boat. That fake crap is sooooo annoying!

Political correctness is STILL running amok!

: thumb:

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen

I think those reacting by saying that's the market are missing the point. The world is a huge and diverse place- advertising to white Viagra cruiser crowd doesn't expand the market and hurts human potential. More different people sailing is a good thing.

-old Viagra white person

Oh, you're absolutely right!!

We're cranking up the big ad campaigns targeting Gunboat 90's to Inuits, remote Amazon tribes and Ethiopian villagers! Our prime demographics!


We're gonna sell a ton of them once we figure out the financing...

[socaldmax]

The intelligent thing to do would have been to do your research and find out from those who have bought the product whether it was worth it or not. Forums like this come to mind to ask questions like that.

The emotional, "cut your nose off to spite your face" response was to walk away and not buy the product, misinterpreting the company's tightly targeted demographics as sexist and racist. There's a certain group that loves to label everyone, and they label themselves as victims. Hardly productive for anyone, especially themselves.

[crabcake]

"white Viagra cruiser crowd"

At least we are capable of formulating an valid objective opinion without resorting to feeble labels...

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

Finally.

Someone who gets it. I'm so tired of the gender and race card, it's so played out. We're only hearing one side of the story, and most people are ready to hang the guy as a misogynist racist selling an inferior product - why? Suddenly his product is crap because he didn't look her in the eye? Did she ask questions? The only way the seller knew her husband was a potential buyer was because he walked up and asked questions. If she hung back and didn't say anything, why should he risk angering the husband by paying attention to the wife when she's not involving herself in the convo?

Just because his materials don't show a rainbow of people and the precise number of females required to pass muster? What's next? Let's pass laws so the CG must board every vessel and ensure there are the correct number of people of every ethnic group represented or the captain of the boat will be fined in violation of the "Rainbow Boating Law."




How about basing the merits of the salesman on his knowledge of the product, and the quality of the product on just how comprehensive and easy to learn it's materials are? THAT seems a logical criteria for basing one's decision. Not some arbitrary requirement to include pictures of an Ethiopian right next to an Inuit on the deck of the boat. That fake crap is sooooo annoying!

Political correctness is STILL running amok!

Good post. I would add something no one has mentioned. Put yourself in the sellers shoes. He has a husband or boyfriend approaching and initiating the conversation the wife or girlfriend from the outset has set up the interaction. Now if the salesman starts making eye contact with the wife or girlfriend he is running the high risk of the husband or boyfriend starting to think that the salesman was hitting on his girl. And we know where that story ends. So the salesman instinctively ignores the female since he doesn't want to create negative tension when he is trying to make a sale.

Go into a bar. I challenge any guy to start to make eye contact and heaven forbid make a slight smile to a women who is with a guy. If the guy sees that he will become very territorial and in some cases even violent. So young and old men alike learn not to become intimate even by eye contact with another guys women.

Calling such behavior misogynist is just dumb. Its a long learned survival mechanism that men have had to learn. Take the guy out of the picture and I am sure our captain salesman would have enjoyed looking women in the eye and most likely would have smiled more than once.

Anyone who has spent time around animals knows that eye contact is one of the most powerful forms of interaction. It can cower a dog or cause it to attack.