Interesting read from one of our fellow female sailors.....

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Gadagirl

Wait, what? I'd be starting a Marxist revolution if I voiced my opinion that a professor teaching my children and grandchildren should not be allowed to use derogatory verbiage towards an individual or group of people? Hmmm and here I'd been thinking that allowing such behavior caused divisions.

My idea of being PC clearly is not the same as others here. My idea is that you simply apply the "Golden Rule" . Treat others as you'd like to be treated. I don't think being respectable towards others is a Marxist conspiracy started during the first WW. Perhaps I'm not grasping the concept. Please explain, but geared toward a more average IQ individual such as myself.

If that is your viewpoint of Politically correct, it is incorrect.

You are not grasping the concept.

I would ask you to read the article again until you have some grip on the reality of the life around you and see why you cannot say some things or have to bow to concepts you do not agree with. Individual thoughts and actions are outlawed by Political correctness.

My sister who works in a school, is not permitted to help a 5 year old child who has urinated in her pants and has to call instructions through a door to the bathroom and direct the child to change her own pants. This is craziness.

It is what is happening to our society these days.

[tdominic_97]

[QUOTE=GoingWalkabout;2230424]

Perhaps I should have gone into the salon and demanded that they have a more representative display of photographic models. Telling them, don't you know that there are a lot of white women looking for blond hair treatment. I am sure if I had dared say anything like that I would have been yelled at, cursed and told to get my skinny white a..... out, you mother .......... white b.........


I have only encountered a few black beauty salon workers, each time I was more than happy with their polite actions, attitudes and haircuts. Have you experienced this behavior? Or are you painting with a broad racist brush?

[crabcake]

[QUOTE=tdominic_97;2230655]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Perhaps I should have gone into the salon and demanded that they have a more representative display of photographic models. Telling them, don't you know that there are a lot of white women looking for blond hair treatment. I am sure if I had dared say anything like that I would have been yelled at, cursed and told to get my skinny white a..... out, you mother .......... white b.........


I have only encountered a few black beauty salon workers, each time I was more than happy with their polite actions, attitudes and haircuts. Have you experienced this behavior? Or are you painting with a broad racist brush?

And there you go again....

Everything is racist or misogynist

If you mention a woman in any form but glowing terms - you are automatically a misogynist to a segment of the population

If you mention an Afro-American (there ain't no such animal, there are American's of African ancestry thou), in any light that someone doesn't care for, you are branded a racist

I'm really sick and tired of people who use these labels - they need lobotomy's.

I'm unsubscribed to this thread - its full of misandrist's and anti-Caucasians. How about that for an over-generalization!

Just like those of you who freely abuse racist and misogynist labels

[weavis]

[QUOTE=crabcake;2230668]

Originally Posted by tdominic_97

I'm unsubscribed to this thread - its full of misandrist's and anti-Caucasians. How about that for an over-generalization!

Just like those of you who freely abuse racist and misogynist labels

Well. That made me get out the dictionary...

[JPA Cate]

Now, here's why I think the woman's decision to not buy that boat course was logical. People vary in the degree to which they are political. I made an assumption, perhaps erroneous, that her decision to not buy from someone whose way of dealing with her was to ignore her, was a politically motivated act, yes arising from feelings. Usually feelings or urges are what engender activity. She was having a rant, in a way.

Here on CF, we often have tolerance for rants, but if anyone is telling him or herself CF lacks chauvinism, look objectively at the joke threads. Now, to be fair, we also have some wonderful, well spoken fellows around, too. Female chauvinism and the woman's version of it, a sort of condescending "he can't help it, he's a boy" attitude are both offensive to others--the other gender. Sometimes women treat men very badly, you all probably know someone to whom this has happened. Sometimes men treat women very badly, and they, too get away with it....consider OJ, or someone from among your acquaintance.

As a woman who traveled from the US a long time ago, I think women in the US have it a lot better than women in the places we've been. And, I think most American men are really pretty neat. ...And there are exceptions.

As weavis writes, women and men are inherently different (vive la diference!). But, I think the goal has for a long time been equal pay for equal work, and in the US, we're approaching that. Historically, the struggle for "rights" was for widows to be able to inherit deceased husband's assets, for the "right" to vote, and in modern times, the right to determine medical care for themselves. imho, we've made progress.


Now, about the "political correctness" concept, weavis' link was pretty interesting. It is shown to be a method of keeping a compliant population, a common goal of ruling classes throughout history.

I recently read a line I really liked in a book, an adult woman says, "Today, I can say f***, but I cannot speak my mind!"

Sea Dreaming hit on something that resonates for me, that you cannot "fight" for personal power, but you can have it by action. Sometimes, that action may be writing about women's issues on forums where it may have nothing to do with sailing.

I must agree that the thread's title is misleading, if you have come to it looking for some interesting reading material relative to cruising and sailing, this thread, as it has evolved, seems to me a lot of re-hashing old ideas. Maybe there's nothing new to say.

The people who write that we should treat each other well regardless of gender, those are the ones whom I would support. AND, my rights stop on my side of your nose, as do yours on the outside of mine!

Cheers, everybody,

Ann

[Gadagirl]

Originally Posted by weavis

If that is your viewpoint of Politically correct, it is incorrect.

You are not grasping the concept.

I would ask you to read the article again until you have some grip on the reality of the life around you and see why you cannot say some things or have to bow to concepts you do not agree with. Individual thoughts and actions are outlawed by Political correctness.

My sister who works in a school, is not permitted to help a 5 year old child who has urinated in her pants and has to call instructions through a door to the bathroom and direct the child to change her own pants. This is craziness.

It is what is happening to our society these days.

Ok, I asked you for clarification of the concept because I admittedly don't understand it. Reading it again is still not making sense to me. I'm not wanting to argue. I genuinely don't understand. I'm unable to grasp the concept of the link you provided, that's why I asked for your assistance, so I might understand your perspective.

I can understand some with the example of your sister. She's unable to legitimately help a child for fear of being falsely accused of child abuse. And that it's ridiculous not to take the most common approach to what would seem a simple compassionate response from her. But perhaps children have been abused, perhaps teachers have been falsely accused. How would you protect both? What would be your policy? Every profession faces these choices daily. Is that Marxist?

I just can't fathom that a university professors ability to flagrantly use abusive language as a means towards higher education is somehow a path toward a more peaceful society. Wouldn't that result in the opposite? Hasn't resulted in the opposite?

[socaldmax]

[QUOTE=weavis;2230671]

Originally Posted by crabcake

Well. That made me get out the dictionary...

Just goes to show you how seldom white males complain about being vilified and demonized.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Now, here's why I think the woman's decision to not buy that boat course was logical. People vary in the degree to which they are political. I made an assumption, perhaps erroneous, that her decision to not buy from someone whose way of dealing with her was to ignore her, was a politically motivated act, yes arising from feelings. Usually feelings or urges are what engender activity. She was having a rant, in a way.

Here on CF, we often have tolerance for rants, but if anyone is telling him or herself CF lacks chauvinism, look at the joke threads. Now, to be fair, we also have some wonderful, well spoken fellows around, too. Female chauvinism and the woman's version of it, a sort of condescending "he can't help it, he's a boy" attitude are both offensive to others--the other gender. Sometimes women treat men very badly, you all probably know someone to whom this has happened. Sometimes men treat women very badly, and they, too get away with it....consider OJ, or someone from among your acquaintance.

As a woman who traveled from the US a long time ago, I think women in the US have it a lot better than women in the places we've been. And, I think most American men are really pretty neat. ...And there are exceptions.

As weavis writes, women and men are inherently different (vive la diference!. But, I think the goal has for a long time been equal pay for equal work, and in the US, we're approaching that. Historically, the struggle for "rights" was for widows to be able to inherit deceased husband's assets, for the "right" to vote, and in modern times, the right to determine medical care for themselves. imho, we've made progress.


Now, about the "political correctness" concept, weavis' link was pretty interesting. It is shown to be a method of keeping a compliant population, a common goal of ruling classes throughout history.

I recently read a line I really liked in a book, an adult woman says, "Today, I can say ****, but I cannot speak my mind!"

Sea Dreaming hit on something that resonates for me, that you cannot "fight" for personal power, but you can have it by action. Sometimes, that action may be writing about women's issues on forums where it may have nothing to do with sailing.

I must agree that the thread's title is misleading, if you have come to it looking for some interesting reading material relative to cruising and sailing, this thread, as it has evolved, seems to me a lot of re-hashing old ideas. Maybe there's nothing new to say.

The people who write that we should treat each other well regardless of gender, those are the ones whom I would support. AND, my rights stop on my side of your nose, as do yours on the outside of mine!

Cheers,

Ann

Ann, it should go without saying that people should treat each other with respect, regardless of their gender or race. Now in the past, I have spoken very harshly to "people" who were thugs or totally lacking in social graces, and they completely deserved it, based on their actions.

As for equal pay and equal rights, I'm amazed and embarrassed that this wasn't settled at least 70-80 years ago. Seriously, there are women in the workplace still making less than their male counterparts and that is completely unacceptable! No one should ever be treated as less than equal based on any arbitrary criteria, much less race or gender. Sadly, we're still working on that.

As for the joke thread, I certainly hope you're not making assumptions about people based on the jokes they tell. I for one, retell the jokes that have been told to me and I can recall. This is one of those things where if the ladies don't like the current tone of the jokes, they're more than welcome to come in and change it with a barrage of husband/boyfriend/sancho jokes, I'm sure everyone would welcome those as much as I would!

My point is, rather than pointing and commenting about it, step in and change it. My contributions to the joke thread were made in an effort to share good jokes and elicit a laugh from fellow members. I've never felt anyone posted any of those jokes with the intention of excluding or belittling anyone or any group. Remember, somebody always has to be the butt of the joke, whether it's little Johnny's teacher, or the blonde girl or the befuddled sheriff.


As for OJ, yes, he was the worst kind of serial abuser - but they've change things since then. As a direct result of the LAPD doing nothing time after time, southern CA law enforcement has now adopted the "nearest male goes to jail" policy.

If someone calls 911 and even mentions abuse, the cops arrive and arrest the male and take him to jail for the night. Even if HE was the one who called and stated he was being abused. In that case, they call it protective custody. Regardless of the facts, regardless of the evidence or lack of, the nearest male goes to jail. It's an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction to the reprehensible manner in which the LAPD ignored Nicole Simpson and let OJ off, time and again.

The right thing to do is collect evidence, take statements and make a determination of what's really happening, even if someone recants their statement, the evidence (ie who's wearing the bruises) should clearly show if abuse is happening and who the victim is. They should always take it seriously if the evidence supports it. I'm looking at the Jolie/Pitt divorce as a prime example of someone claiming abuse to get the upper hand in the divorce and the court of public opinion. Fortunately, the FBI is pretty good at investigating.

Wow! talking about drifting! LOL

But I do enjoy discussing these things with you, I think we agree 90% of the time, the only time I disagree is very rarely, when I post like this. Even then, I don't disagree too far, maybe a slight difference in view rather than a 180 opposite view.

[decktapper]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Good post. I would add something no one has mentioned. Put yourself in the sellers shoes. He has a husband or boyfriend approaching and initiating the conversation the wife or girlfriend from the outset has set up the interaction. Now if the salesman starts making eye contact with the wife or girlfriend he is running the high risk of the husband or boyfriend starting to think that the salesman was hitting on his girl. And we know where that story ends. So the salesman instinctively ignores the female since he doesn't want to create negative tension when he is trying to make a sale.

Go into a bar. I challenge any guy to start to make eye contact and heaven forbid make a slight smile to a women who is with a guy. If the guy sees that he will become very territorial and in some cases even violent. So young and old men alike learn not to become intimate even by eye contact with another guys women.

Calling such behavior misogynist is just dumb. Its a long learned survival mechanism that men have had to learn. Take the guy out of the picture and I am sure our captain salesman would have enjoyed looking women in the eye and most likely would have smiled more than once.

Anyone who has spent time around animals knows that eye contact is one of the most powerful forms of interaction. It can cower a dog or cause it to attack.

Thank you Going Walkabout !!!! If the rest of the people in the world were half as intelligent as you the world would be a better place.

[Thomea]

Hello all- I didnt realize this was going to turn into a big divide or become argumentative.... Maybe we can get back to the reason we all joined this site, & just get back to what brings us all together, the DEEP love of sailing.. Let's maybe focus on what brings us together, rather than what divides us. Especially with everything going on politically in the US. I certainly dont want to see any more divides. : biggrin:

~ Fair Winds

[boatman61]

First of all.. apologies to Thomea for the OP comment.. looking back she just posted the link..
Regarding Victoria Fine.. there's several things that come across.. she's pissy because she was politely put aside.. however she shows no indication that she demonstrated interest, asked questions to include herself in the conversation.. she waits till her 'man' finally says they want course's for both of them.. and then she's included.. what's the problem.??
Then she starts on about 'old white men'.. well that's natural.. old white men are the ones usually looking for course's as they've reached an age where their physical capabilities are such they cannot learn as young guys did/do.. we got out there and had a go.. some of us stuck to it.. others said 'screw this for a game of soldiers'..
Then there was the sex/race/colour rant..
Methinks a fragile egos unhappy about not being suitably polished so its a character assassination and a hoped for boost to their web sites hits..
Also.. some of their subjects on the site gave me a good chuckle.. seeing as they want a sailing course..

[svGenesis]

I told him respectfully that he had lost us as customers and we walked away. He yelled a loud "****" after us.

Priceless!

[socaldmax]

That article on their blog comes across as a hit piece, to me. She took some slight perceived snub and turned it into an entire vendetta - which is one of the downfalls of the internet. There's nobody out there moderating the blogs, so people can say pretty much whatever they want, unless the aggrieved party wants to spend the money to hire an attorney and file a suit for defamation of character and libel. It might not be that easy to prove, especially the financial losses.

The owner of the company, Bob Figular, did post in the comments section. Here's what he posted:

Bob Figular 9 hours ago

I am Captain Bob Figular and 100% can tell you that this is a total distortion of the truth. With more than 40,000 graduates of our courses we have trained a very diverse group of both men an women over the last 18 years in business.

These two are the most dangerous types of racists in my opinion because they see bias when it does not exist. They had a social agenda when they cam to my booth. I was equally professional with both

When I explained the Coast guards requirement of 360 days of boating experience for licensing I was accused of being a racist since according to these two I was preventing "people of color" from entering the boating market. This maritime did not fit into their thinking and they let me know it.

Check out out website for yourself and see if you can find any race or gender bias or better yet stop by the show and speak with me directly.

I also noticed that the blog is using the picture from the CIAB website, which has the trademark symbol clearly on it. If I were them, I'd be a lot more concerned about using stolen trademarked material on my website than the lack of color on some brochures and claiming that it's some sort of racist agenda.

[BlueSlue]

Racism and sexism still do exist and ways to handle those situations more gracefully also exist.

I think the OP (the blogger) makes a valid point that looking for ways to expand the boating market by making it more welcoming to a more diverse population is good for boating and good for business. However, she essentially accused him of being sexist and racist based on lack of eye contact with her and marketing materials and then proceeded to give him suggestions on how to run his business. It’s not surprising that he got defensive. On the other hand yelling the f-word at her is a pretty poor response.

As a women, I have been frustrated many times by salesmen, contractors, technical reps, etc. giving me the “little woman” treatment, so I understand where she is coming from on this. However, she said that when she felt like he was ignoring her she started looking at brochures. How the heck was he supposed to know she was equally interested in the product, then? The reality is that most women who he sees at boat shows are probably not as interested in the product as the men they are with. People, rightly or wrongly, make assumptions based on their past experiences. If she had approached him on her own or had explicitly stated that she was interested in the product for herself and he still ignored her or was condescending to her, then a claim of sexism would be justified.

I do find it disappointing that there are only white people depicted that on the website for the product. It does suggest that the business is out of touch with modern society in the U.S., which in turn suggests that the product does not live up to its potential as the OP points out in her blog. Including some images of people of color has no downside and has the upside of making the business project the image of being welcoming to all potential customers. And hopefully the business actually is welcoming to a diverse set of customers.

I think a better approach in these situations is to ask some questions (in a pleasant manner) along the lines of, “Do you think black people (or whoever) will succeed with this course?” or “Is this product designed specifically for men?” or “Do you think women feel welcome to participate in this course?” If the rep is surprised at that line of questioning, then you have an opening to explain why you might have a certain perception. If the rep says something that indicates there is a bias, then you know what kind of people you are dealing with and can choose to spend your money elsewhere.

Ranting and making generalizations about old white men as the OP did is unfair and unhelpful. It hardens hearts rather than opening them. Claiming sexism and racism don’t exist, aren’t harmful, or are somehow the victim’s fault shows ignorance and small-mindedness. Neither path helps makes the world a better place.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by BlueSlue

Racism and sexism still do exist and ways to handle those situations more gracefully also exist.

I think the OP (the blogger) makes a valid point that looking for ways to expand the boating market by making it more welcoming to a more diverse population is good for boating and good for business. However, she essentially accused him of being sexist and racist based on lack of eye contact with her and marketing materials and then proceeded to give him suggestions on how to run his business. It’s not surprising that he got defensive. On the other hand yelling the f-word at her is a pretty poor response.

As a women, I have been frustrated many times by salesmen, contractors, technical reps, etc. giving me the “little woman” treatment, so I understand where she is coming from on this. However, she said that when she felt like he was ignoring her she started looking at brochures. How the heck was he supposed to know she was equally interested in the product, then? The reality is that most women who he sees at boat shows are probably not as interested in the product as the men they are with. People, rightly or wrongly, make assumptions based on their past experiences. If she had approached him on her own or had explicitly stated that she was interested in the product for herself and he still ignored her or was condescending to her, then a claim of sexism would be justified.

I do find it disappointing that there are only white people depicted that on the website for the product. It does suggest that the business is out of touch with modern society in the U.S., which in turn suggests that the product does not live up to its potential as the OP points out in her blog. Including some images of people of color has no downside and has the upside of making the business project the image of being welcoming to all potential customers. And hopefully the business actually is welcoming to a diverse set of customers.

I think a better approach in these situations is to ask some questions (in a pleasant manner) along the lines of, “Do you think black people (or whoever) will succeed with this course?” or “Is this product designed specifically for men?” or “Do you think women feel welcome to participate in this course?” If the rep is surprised at that line of questioning, then you have an opening to explain why you might have a certain perception. If the rep says something that indicates there is a bias, then you know what kind of people you are dealing with and can choose to spend your money elsewhere.

Ranting and making generalizations about old white men as the OP did is unfair and unhelpful. It hardens hearts rather than opening them. Claiming sexism and racism don’t exist, aren’t harmful, or are somehow the victim’s fault shows ignorance and small-mindedness. Neither path helps makes the world a better place.

So whats he supposed to do..??
Do a Hillary and hire some black actors and actresses to pose artistically on his boat.. if the shots he has are only of his customers (consented) and they happen to be old white honkies like me it makes him a racist..????
You seriously sound like your suggesting he hides any coloured clients..

signed.. Ungraceful.