Formal Sailing course vs. private contract instructor

[Cpt Mark]

Ok, go to Mexico and buy your boat. If you are planning to anchor out you will need a dinghy to get around. Get a dinghy that can be sailed as well as motored and rowed. If you really really want to learn how to sail, you start in dinghy, lasers etc. Something that when you make a mistake you will know because you will be in the water righting the dink thinking about what you just missed LOL. Most importantly you will learn to feel the wind and read the wind on the water long before it gets to you. This is when you are getting good.

My sister took a couple of ASA classes and one day out sailing on my 40' sailboat we had some issues I needed to take care of. I put her in charge and listened as she talked herself through the steps of whatever maneuver she was about to do. I was very impressed that in a group class of 4 students she'd learned so much and could put it to use which is key. That was the advantage of a structured, organized course. On the other hand, a friend of mine took lessons in Dubai. Their "professional" instructors let them out on dinghy in 20-25 knot winds and hers had a broken rudder. They passed her that day. She has never gone near a sailboat again. She will come and sail with me and we'll see how that goes. Point is, just because it is a nationally recognized program and you paid a lot of money doesn't mean diddly squat. Talk to the students coming out of the class etc. I took my initial lessons from a private school. There were no ASA, RYA etc back then. In my school we had to sail the boat into the slip to be able to pass the class. Something I did regularly as practice on my 40' and later while delivering a 68' with an engine issue I sailed it into the slip no big deal.

Where I learned the finer points and truly how to sail was by connecting on a race boat with dead serious racers. There, I learned how to truly maximize my sailing etc. And it was free. Just had to show up for every race and every practice. The boat by the way was an old Columbia 24 and we raced in our class on the San Fransisco Bay. We won every race except for one 2 years running. At the end of the 2nd season we were in the champion of champion series which was all the class winners now racing against each other, handicapped. We won that too. So it doesn't have to be some expensive, fancy America's cup race boat.

I had a client who had a beautiful boat and I worked with him on how to sail. Very smart guy, learned all the names etc very fast. Could get the boat in/out of the slip no problem thought he knew it all. My Captain friends would always ask me, when is going to learn to sail? My answer, never. He thinks he knows how to sail now and won't learn. As far as I know he still hasn't a clue on how to trim sails to this day.

[Snore]

Find an ASA Instructor and talk to him/her. If you guys hit it off hire him/her to do the equivalent of ASA 101/103 and an overview of 105 (navigation).

Depending on how well you pick things up this could be done in 4 days. At the end of that you will have a solid foundation to learn. Beats the hell out of winging it.

[JuliettOscarNov]

Ruso,
Sounds like we're in the same boat, no pun intended. The only formal training I have was a course I took in college for credit hours about 10 years ago, which I didn't take very seriously. About a year ago I caught the sailing bug somehow and bought a Hunter 23 late last summer, trailer and all, off of CList for dirt cheap. I sailed the crap out of it in my lake every chance I got (mainly solo) until winter came and I put her back on the trailer. The lake's water level drops to make hydroelectric E, so I can't keep her tied to the pier or launch her from my ramp until spring. We both have the same goal to get that full size cruiser, hopefully sooner than later.
I know pretty much everyone on CF knows more than I do, but I would recommended you find a cheap 18-25ft, 30 yr old boat to sharpen yourself before the real thing. They are all over the web. I don't think daysailing a sunfish would be nearly as fun, and going from that to a 35ft cruiser seems like a pretty big jump.
Back to the topic, I plan on taking some ASA courses in the near future mainly so I can bareboat charter before I buy. The idea of a private instructor is also intriguing, but I'm not sure if you can get any certification out of that. I'm interested to hear what path you choose and how it works out for you. Please let me know how it goes. Good luck! -Jon

[Ruso]

Many thanks, guys for the input. Lihuedooley77 put a great points on mechanical and electric aspects of sailing.
Just watched one video when Russian delivery skipper took a delivery from Canada to Bahamas a boat he was completely unfamiliar with and he not only skipped the boat system evaluation but also did not have an essentials such as manual water pump, alternative sources of electricity (besides solar), e.t.c. His 10 days where... cluster f**ck. For these days everything could go wrong - went wrong. Autopilot died second day, electric was shorted somewhere. He even lost his anchor chain and the anchor was banging the boat haul under sea level during 2 days storm. Last 4 days his boat was out of electricity and power, taking water and only navigation was his half-dead handheld GPS.
I learned a lot from him On positive note he was demonstrating very high level of emotional stability and did not go into panic mode - guy with steel balls...
Even though I am not completely ruling out a sailing school I plant to start working on my learning objectives and use the outcome to discuss them with a sailing school instructors and/or a private instructor. Some sailing schools have a great learning subjective outlined on their web sites.
Starting with absolutely essential. On very high level... Of course hourly expenses I plan as $50 per hours but it depends on level of expertise and availability of instructor. You get what you pay for.. but hoping to stay in $25 per hour.
1. Survival - "what if" worst case scenario. Engine, electrics, sea water in the boat, rigging, radio communications. "How to" - deal with such emergencies.
Can be done during purchase process by hiring diesel mechanic, electric, marine plumber and rigger - I need them anyway for survey and repairs I am licensed HAM and radio communications should not take too much training efforts. 10 hours hiring time. $500
2. Complete boat systems evaluation as above but more focused on the boat maintenance and preventive actions. 10 hours hiring time . $500
3. Motoring, docking, marina movement. 5 hours hiring time. $250
4. Day sailing under sails 5 days 6 hours each - 30 hours hiring time. $1500
On this stage I should be comfortable to do a day sailing and invest all time available into practice before to go into second stage of actual multi-day cruising. Sounds reasonable?

[Peeew]

I found that some official documentation of successful training was helpful when chartering. Certainly basic sailing is easily learned on a laser or similar. Especially since a bad move... and you swim! Great lesson. But the systems, rules, anchoring, etc are quite different on a bigger boat. I believe there are freelance, ASA Certified instructors that can teach and provide accepted documentation if you need it. And this way you might not miss some things that otherwise get skipped by racing teams or friends. It makes it a lot more fun when you feel competent And learn in a safe environment. You can learn on your own from experience. But remember that judgement comes from experience and many experiences come from bad judgement.

[Ruso]

Originally Posted by Peeew

....ASA Certified instructors that can teach and provide accepted documentation if you need it. And this way you might not miss some things that otherwise get skipped by racing teams or friends. ...

Interesting point.. Definitively worth to ask if it possible. It makes extra expenses well justified.

[CarinaPDX]

Consider joining the US Power Squadrons. They have a broad curriculum at a fraction of the ASA prices. This is probably the best place to learn piloting and navigation. When I taught the sailing class 30 years ago it was pretty theoretical, which is great for mastering the skill, but today I think it may have changed. There are classes in weather, engine maintenance, marine electronics and more.

In order to skipper a cruising boat requires both knowledge and experience. Actually making the boat move under sail is a small part of the problem, but of course critical. Learning to sail on a 30'+ boat is not as easy as on a smaller boat, and the mistakes get more expensive as the size increases. The OP doesn't want to go the dinghy route so perhaps a 20'-26' boat would be better.

Learning to be a skipper, as opposed to a sailor, is best done by crewing with experienced skippers. Observing and experiencing the reality is superior to simply being taught, and especially in the classroom. Today it seems that getting bit by the sailing bug means going straight to boat ownership and being the captain; in the past crewing was part of that path. I think a good plan is to get a small boat to sail locally, and volunteer to crew on larger boats as time allows. Then step up to owning a cruising boat.

Greg

[Paul Howard]

I had taught sailing as a certified instructor for Basic, Intermediate and Advanced sailing in a cruising program and had also done a lot of long-term cruising. As a sideline, I offered people sailing lessons on their own boat, owner-aboard deliveries, spousal cruising sailing lessons, etc. Many of those people went on to do long-term cruising and several told me that the time spent with me was very valuable in giving them the confidence to enjoy their long-term cruising. Sailing is not difficult, but gaining confidence that you are doing the right thing is more important than having all the latest gizmos. Spending money on preparing yourself is more important than having the best equipped boat. Engage an experienced sailing instructor with cruising experience and focus on what you need to round out your experience. Most people have done lots of daysailing but lack overnight sailing experience. I usually went out for five to seven days that included a two-night passage so the learners got to know what it was like to keep watches, avoid ships and fishing vessels by judging the lights and other things they could not get from typical group classes, as they were doing all of the things on their own - not sharing the responsibilities and letting others do it.

[Ruso]

Originally Posted by Paul Howard

I usually went out for five to seven days that included a two-night passage so the learners got to know what it was like to keep watches, avoid ships and fishing vessels by judging the lights and other things they could not get from typical group classes, as they were doing all of the things on their own - not sharing the responsibilities and letting others do it.

It would be a second stage after learning day saiing... But, considering very limited inventory in the Sea of Cortez I am seriously considering buying a bot in California, spend month or so learning basics and then hire a delivery skipper or experienced cruiser and learn it during 10 days passage to the Cabo.

[Svanen]

Originally Posted by DEAN2140

As an instructor for 20+ years, I favor a good sailing school. The main benefit is that the school will be certified by US Sailing or ASA, which means it has a tried and tested curriculum that covers what you need to know for safe sailing.

I am unaware of any actual testing that has verified the practical utility of the various components of the ASA’s, or US Sailing’s, formal sailing curricula. Certainly there is no systematic testing by any independent, disinterested third parties.

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Consider joining the US Power Squadrons. They have a broad curriculum at a fraction of the ASA prices. This is probably the best place to learn piloting and navigation. When I taught the sailing class 30 years ago it was pretty theoretical, which is great for mastering the skill, but today I think it may have changed.

Nope, your information is still accurate. There is a reason why the Power Squadron’s courses are inexpensive: they are academic, desktop instruction, taught by dedicated volunteers who have climbed through the Power Squadron’s hierarchy but often have very little practical experience.

This is not to say that USPS courses are useless: virtually all sailing instruction has some value. Just don’t assume that a series of shoredside lectures can provide the same benefit as expert instruction and student practice on an actual boat.

[Flagman101]

Originally Posted by Ruso

I am pretty much decided, but I leave some room for reconsideration.
Having some limited 40 years ago in youth skipper school decided to come back.
Now..
I plan to buy a sail boat 30-35 feet in Mexico - not agree for a dinghy to learn.
I am going to have liability insurance only. I plan invest into the purchase as much as I can easy (some kind) walk away with no tragedy if I drown her - it is life and chances always high when you are beginner.
I am not interested in getting other boats for charter and not interested to make sailing as my professional career.
Attending multiple classes in unrelated fields thought me they are waste of time - especially if the classes are "in classroom". Dumb questions, attempt to expose yourself as smart student.. you name it. I can do pretty well with theory over internet sources. Practice is the key.

It seems to me, to hire local experienced sailor makes it more cost efficient than attending even "live aboard" school. I am not talking "next slip guy". There are delivery skippers, members of local sailing club doing racing on the regular bases. There are always guys locally with good sailor reputation.. Of course, you get what you pay for. I am aware of it. 3 courses of formal sailing training sets me back for 5-6K . I am assuming for 6K I can get much more training on my own boat and on my own term. No?
Any advise, even start with a dinghy on a local lake , will be taken with appreciation and respect. Thank you.

Your question and options are veryy wide. In the end you decide what is best for you.
BUT
Formal vs Informal.
With formal you do get the official certifications.
Informal you don,t
Even if for now you are not interested into anything but your own boat, this might and probably will change.
So Spending for spending, I would goo for formal. So you Don't have to do it all again if formal trainng becomes necessary

[Checkswrecks]

Ruso -

Your questions and comments seem to be scattered. You haven't sailed in 40 years and yet ask about being taught in a number of areas that would only come as the result of experience and ownership. fwiw, I grew up on a lake with small boats and have a lot of power work boat experience, yet still got a lot out of the 101/103 courses.

So to the original question about not learning as much in formal big classes (outside of sailing), the ASA101/103 classes are limited to you and a few other students at most. Although the classroom sessions may have more students, those go quick and the boats aren't big enough to hold more than a few plus the instructor. As somebody with a degree in education, I can tell you that for learning studies have consistently found that small groups are the best model, because you learn from your own mistakes plus those of the others. Plus, having done the 101/103, people do bond in such small groups which made things more fun and interesting.

Those who wrote about learning in a small boat first were spot-on. A benefit of the 101 course is that you will really get feel and experience that you won't in a bigger heavier boat, so you do get a better fundamental understanding. The responses to your inputs are more immediate and there are less distractions. I honestly was surprised at both my own bad habits to unlearn and how much I'd forgotten. Since you don't want to buy a small boat first, then the school boat does this for you. A friend with experience took a 101 class and pointed out that he got a priceless lesson when they capsized the little boat because they were willing to "go farther" than he ever would in his 33' boat.

The other benefit to the 101/103 combo is that they do have a set of tasks to make sure you learn, rather than an independent person who may or may not hit each of the basics. Our 103 class was on a very nice 37' boat worth a LOT more than what I have. When we left the dock in the morning, we would stay out and hold "class" for the 3 students in the cabin or in the cockpit during lunches.

Time-wise, a lot of the 101/103 combo classes only take a week, so that doesn't seem to be excessive for your time description. And money doesn't seem to be an issue when you write about being willing to pay the cost of a one on one situation. This initial week would basically get you to a solid set of fundamentals. The worst that will happen is that you'll have gotten some basics at the cost of $1000-$1500 and a week's time.

Then you'll be ready to get into a number of the other things you wrote about.

btw - The ASA courses can also get you an insurance discount.

[Ruso]

Thank you, guys.
I am reading carefully each post.
May be take a 101/103 combined course is not such bad idea and then concentrate on "advanced" subjects.

[Pete17C]

I took my USS Basic Keelboat at a school/charter co/club. Took the class in early spring, and had a membership at the club for the year. Class was taught over two weekends on Pearson Ensigns, with no more than 3 students, and after passing you could take the boats out sans instructor (he had 6-7 for club use). Boats were kept in good shape, and rigged for easy single handing. Kinda expensive at about $4k for the class and a years membership. But you just reserve online and show up and the boats are ready to go. No additional expense and no maintenance to do. He also had larger boats for charter that you got a discount on if you are a member (after passing the USS Basic Cruising class or a check sail). Ended up sailing with my classmates quite a bit that year, and I think the give and take of different perspectives really helped in becoming a better sailor and skipper.

/just adding to the ideas/possibilities

[djhsailor]

I took a course on the local lake right after my first trip on a bareboat charter. Fun, fun, fun! Fun little boats. Instant feedback on right and wrong techniques. Sailing with folks with common interests who want to have fun. Cheap!

Later I combined vacation sailing in the BVI and then around Vancouver Island with courses. The prices were similar or less than just vacationing on those 40' - 50' boats. Again, folks with common interests wanting to have fun on the water. Both provided lots of hands on experience in locations that were at the top of my bucket lists. I made friends with folks who still sail with me 12 years later.

Seamanship is a life long pursuit. I like to read stories and online journals/articles/blogs before I go to bed. Maybe a couple hours a week. Over time, you learn how to avoid trouble and how to fix and care for your boat.