Couple with No Sailing Experience Buying Catamaran and In Need of Insurance Advice

[captain38]

PLEASE don't sign that purchase contract yet!! The issue is not insurance. The issue you really should Be considering is your lack of experience which prevents you from buying the right boat for your dream. No matter how good a deal the cat is, it may turn out to be very costly in the long run.
Please take a few sailing lessons. Then charter a boat for a week, and do that several more times with very different boats in different areas before you decide what kind of boat is best for you AND best for where you plan to cruise.

As educators you know the value of gaining knowledge through research.

Good luck!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Jerryreliable

You may qualify for a USCG Captains License. If you have spent some time on the water, even on a rowboat or a kayak, during your entire life, that qualifies you for time towards a license.

Unless I'm mistaken, it's 360 days within the last 5yrs. It's an 8hr day on the water. There are other rules such as proving ownership of the boat you gained seatime on, type of boat, coastal vs inland, etc...

Given the original post, it's highly unlikely the OP can get licensed based on existing experience. Plus with the cost of getting a USCG license, it would likely be cheaper to just pay an inflated insurance price for a year.

[maersi]

About 5 years ago, there was a RYA affiliated school in Beijing, that used to sail out of Qinhuangdao and Qingdao. It might be worth while contacting them to see if they could get you started with certification. www.beijingsailing.com

[Capdave360]

I didn't read all 11 pages, but by now you've gathered people have strong feelings about your plans. Certainly you can succeed - many have. But people don't publish their failures, so there is a definite survivor's bias to the anecdotes - so your probability of succeeding may be lower than it appears.

If this boat represents 10% or less of your net worth, don't worry about it. If it represents 20% or more, you are going to be boat poor unless you have a significant income while not working, and/or you suddenly grow a decade of mechanical/electrical/plumbing/rigging etc. expertise like a new limb, or unless you start cutting corners big time. Just the travel, hotel, survey, marina, lessons, etc. costs you are contemplating will add up to a significant % of the boat value.

There are 154 Lagoon 450s for sale on yachtworld.com right now. I would take a deep breath, and think more carefully about the logistics, challenges, and finances of buying this boat, and in Greece as US citizens. The whole project is waaay more complex (and expensive) than it first appears, as many posters have pointed out.

If you're going sailing for the rest of your active lives, there's no huge rush, right? Take a few weeks or months, and lay a strong foundation to succeed. I forget the origin of the quote, but personally I prefer achievement and attainment over the more dramatic striving and collapse.

My $0.02

[thataway41]

I have always urged neophyte sailors to follow their dream. You are considering doing so at a reasonably young age, and hopefully both of you are fully fit.

The Lagoon 450 is a beautiful boat, but with sophisticated systems.

Although getting insurance is an issue (and I believe essential in today's world), it is only one of multiple potential road bocks.

Starting with the boat. Has the boat been surveyed? Have you been aboard the specific boat you are buying? Have you sea trialed this boat? (All of these should be done before you make a final payment.).

It is usual to put a 10% down payment, purchase subject to survey and sea trial. You need to have an independent surveyor, preferably not one with any connection to the seller, sellers marina or seller's broker. You want a very good surveyor (There are relatively few of these), who is well versed in the sailing catamarans.). The sea trial should be made with a mechanic who is certified in that specific engine and drive system. These boats have sail drives which can be problematical.

Next is the question of your being able to repair all systems aboard, and have redundancy for critical systems. Just a minor example--the water pump goes out halfway across the Atlantic. You should have a second pump aboard, and be able to replace in a short time during rough seas. Then you should have a rebuild ket aboard, to rebuild the first pump. (And a hand pump back up) This is just a very simple example. What about the generator, or battery charging system? Auto pilot and its system--do you have a back up pilot? The list goes on. My philosophy was to have the tools and materials to fabricate parts, if I didn't have a specific part which was essential. What condition is the standing riggings on the boat. Are you carrying spare wire and materials to make a proper connection?

There are so many things which can go wrong. You mention not doing anything "Stupid"...sure that is logical. Unfortunately we are often faced with problems that are not of our doing. For example that 55 knot squall which hits without warning. Only one of you is on deck (are you taking two other experienced hands on the trans Atlantic crossing?). Are you able to douse the sals, and keep the boat under control. How about at anchor, you drag, or another boat drags into you? Are you ready to "cut and run"--leave the primary anchor, and get the boat to sea in a few minutes or less? Have you planned for that contingency--and have back up anchoring systems?

In the 1980's I cruised Calif to the Med, Baltic, Caribbean and back without hull insurance. At that time the only insurance I could get for a 62' boat with two people aboard was 10% of hull value per year. I had about 100,000 miles of ocean sailing experience then, including crossing oceans, it was not experience, it was crew, size of boat, locations and times of year. I carried liability insurance.

An excellent point was made about your wife being as competent as you are. If there is a medical emergency--and one is in-capacitated, can the spouse sail the boat to safely? Is one of you physically able to handle a boat which's working sail area is in the 1300 sq foot range?

How are you with going up the mast when at sea, an repairing the mainsail track, where the square head fully battened sail, has caused a failure of the track/car?

The sailing videos show mostly the good times. Many just stick to easy sailing areas. Some have been lucky...

I am in the camp who feels that your trying to go to Greece during a World Wide Pandemic is not only unwise (I am a retired MD), but going to be logistically difficult. We don't know what border restrictions will be in June, or even next November. Your traveling from China alone may be an issue.

Today "navigation" is very easy--just follow the purple line on the MFD. What if you loose the GPS--are you going to be capable to navigate safely to a destination? (Yep the RDF trick works--but you have to have a radio which is capable of this and you have to know how to use it.)

What is you level of electrical issue repair? There are so many issues brought up which are far beyond a simple yacht masters course, and insurance, if you want to cross an ocean. For example you comment about meeting in the Azores if you are making a West bound trans Atlantic, indicates you have not done reading on routing. The Bahamas would not be my first choice of a landfall, but they are doable.

Oh by the way, I always set aside 25% of a boat's value when I purchase it, to pay for upgrades, repairs and emergencies in the first year's ownership. In this case it could easily be $100k. There was a question of what boat prices would be later this year or next year, depending on the Pandemic. My guess is that they will be very depressed. Hopefully I am wrong...

My wife and I wish you the best. She has over 100K ocean miles, I am somewhere over 200k. You have to think thru all scenarios and plan for them.

[TabbyCat]

Originally Posted by SV Blown Away

Hello Everyone!
... would you please give some constructive advice along with insurance company, sailing certification, and experience suggestions? We would really appreciate it!

Congratulations! I think now is the perfect time to get a boat and go sailing!

I can probalby get you a quote, but the underwriters will require you to have some hands on training with a professional captain before they will cover you to operate the boat by yourselves. You'll have to hire the captain. Send me a PM or e-mail.

[David Mathis]

Sailing a boat of that size and complexity Without having sailing experience might have the same level of success as hosting a skeet shoot and badminton tournament at the school for the blind. Your heart may be in the right place but you both need to attend a sailing school before attempting to sail off to discover new worlds. Many sailing schools are available at a reasonable price. They will teach the basics of sailing theory then show you how to apply that theory to make the boat move, turn, and stop.
For a license, experience must be shown before a USCG license will be issued but your insurance company may be satisfied with a state boater safety certificate which you may be able to get by taking an online course.
As to registering or documenting a foreign vessel, I can offer no advice but you could call the USCG Documentation Center in Falling Waters, WV.
Take a sailing course and enjoy a wonderful retirement.

[gerson]

Think you will need a local skipper (or someone with a RYA OR LOCAL LICENCE, that is used in ICC EU countries. you can do a day skipper or a CG course in the states, what will be a easier way to enter in this world. The problem is not the insurance, and the boat will not be recovered if anything happens with a no skilled crew. Your Lagoon can be registered under a offshore company like Yacht Registry in Delaware or similar, Would you drive a car without an appropriate documentation? If you need any knowledge or itineraries in the eastern Med send me a message

[Nahbrown]

I read the OP but not the next 10 pages so this advice was probably already given.
We were in the same situation as you a few years ago and took a week long live aboard course with LTD Sailing in Grenada. It was 6 full days of instruction And we didn’t get off the boat except for diner a couple times. Once we found our boat (Lagoon 440]we hired a captain to improve our driving skills in the canals of Key Largo FL. Those certifications and training along with small boat experiences is all Geico needed to insure us. Our premium dropped $2000 US the second year after we provided details of our 3500 miles of travels.

** you should IMO**
1). Hire a CERTIFIED sailing instructor to teach you on your boat. Get your ASA or equivalents to show the company’s. Pay him for the week or more.

2) sailing isnt Hard. Docking can be. Pay him extra time to gain docking skills. Find Areas with current to deal with while the instructor is on board.

[rhubstuff]

I am always amazed that someone who wouldn't even think of buying a large airplane (sight unseen yet!) and flying across the US having no experience or license to fly, would buy a boat and take off across an ocean. I think the OP needs to check off many pages of "don't knows" before thinking about crossing oceans. My first boat was 9 ft. long, my second, 17 ft., my third, 32 ft., and my fourth, 57 ft. During those 5+ years, I raced, cruised, delivered, and worked on boats of every size and type, many times for free, just to learn the ropes. There is no substitute for experience, period. I highly recommend that the OPs approach their dream like they approached their teaching careers: Get educated first, then enjoy the fruits of your efforts.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by SV Blown Away

Hello Everyone!

My wife and I are new to Cruisers Forum and this our first post : ). We desperately need your wise advice because we are thoroughly confused and are also humbled that we don't even know what we don't know.

We have had the life-long dream of retiring on a sailboat and sailing the world and now is the time! We are retiring this year from teaching and are two days away from signing a prepurchase memorandum of agreement (MOA) on a used Lagoon 450 sailing catamaran in Greece which is just the one we have been looking for and then hopefully traveling to Greece June 20th if the foreigner travel ban has been lifted.

(please try and hold your laughter) With all of that said, we are now searching for yacht insurance and they are all asking for experience and we have none, but we are ready to gain any certification and experience needed to procure it.

Has anyone been in this situation or known someone else who has and would you please give some constructive advice along with insurance company, sailing certification, and experience suggestions? We would really appreciate it!

Did you take the next step in the purchase of the Lagoon 450 you were pursuing?

[boatingisbetter]

In 1995 my wife and I purchased a 46 foot monohull in England with basically no sailing experience. I had "owned" a 18 foot sailboat with a friend that we took out once but owned for a couple of years. (We are both US Citizens.)

I filled out my Pantaneaus Insurance forms mentioning the three years of boat ownership. I also owned a rowboat and some canoes. I mentioned on my application that I had owned multiple other boats over the years. It was accurate but not truthful. I did this at the London Boat Show booth and paid for a year on the spot.

They insured me until I reached the USA and they told me they would not insure me, or anyone, in the USA. BTW, I still own that boat. And Pantaneus does of course have a subsidiary in the USA.

Once I purchased the boat. I then hired five different captains to train me on their five different boats. I then hired two different ones to move our boat to Darmouth for the trip to Brest and eventually to The Canary Islands. I ended up going from England to The Canary Islands without a hired captain. And it was probably more of a risk than I needed to take. It took me several months to get to the Canary Islands with various friends and sailing text books. We then crossed to the Caribbean in January. And arrived in Ft Lauderdale that May.

I think my 46 monohull was, and is, too big. My wife and I are now in our mid-sixities. And we can handle it fine if the wind isn't too strong. But finding dockage is difficult. And those are big sails and ropes.

We also own a 34 foot catamaran trawler and finding dockage is difficult for it also (too wide). Difficult is not the same as impossible but If I had it to do over. I would have purchased smaller boats just to keep things simpler.

I am concerned about your arriving in Greece with no means of moving this boat without help. You will find that inconvenient at best. But I am thinking you can do it. But might wish that you had not added the complexity of an overseas purchase during a pandemic to the other things that will require your attention with this large boat. A Stateside purchase would be so much simpler, safer, easier and pleasant. And did I mention the pandemic?

That being said, with proper training you can probably get insurance and get the boat moved around. I really enjoyed the Canary Islands. And at least in 1995 they did not clear boats in or out. They did not care about VAT, licenses nor much of anything by way of legalities. They also had plenty of dockage and anchorages.

You will want to dock for supplies, repairs and crew changes on occasion. If you are really into this boat and this timing. A purchase on this side of the Atlantic would not put you in the position of crossing the ocean with so little skill (as I had done). If you are not familiar with Jimmy Cornell's "World Cruising Routes" you might consider a purchase. It will be great fun and educational for your eventual sailing experiences... once you are ready.

I am suggesting do as I say and not as I did.

[Cool Hand Luke]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Unless I'm mistaken, it's 360 days within the last 5yrs. It's an 8hr day on the water. There are other rules such as proving ownership of the boat you gained seatime on, type of boat, coastal vs inland, etc...

Given the original post, it's highly unlikely the OP can get licensed based on existing experience. Plus with the cost of getting a USCG license, it would likely be cheaper to just pay an inflated insurance price for a year.

Correct... I've done sooooo many bareboat charters with my family and friends. I've been on my friend's boat sooooo many times. And I've sailed my Jeanneau SO409 from the BVIs to New Jersey. Even with all that, it was STILL very difficult to prove the 360 day requirement in the last 5 years. I had to print out all the documentations for my charters, had to get a signature from my friend, and had to document my time on my own vessel. But, despite all that, I'm glad that this requirement is there... it makes sure the Captain has thorough experience on the water.

[Norman_E]

Originally Posted by StuM

Northern Reef have gone bust leaving a lot of people without cover!

That is if they ever actually had cover, as a lot of people thought that it was just a scam.


As for the original posters. Don't buy a boat until you have both gone on sailing courses and found out if its for you or not. There are plenty of people who have bought boats, scared themselves first time in a big sea and never gone out again.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by SV Blown Away

Sir, with no disrespect, this was my first ever (compared to your 25,000) and honestly, I needed to read them all in order to give intelligent responses. Not mention I live in China, I work and the thread was only about 12 hours old. How about some patience, a little grace, and saying something helpful instead of just a put-down?

Blown Away,

You have absolutely no idea what you're getting into - and Boatie (Boatman61) and Ann (of JPA Cate) are two of the most experienced and learned sailors who participate on this Forum. You'd be wise to listen to what either of them has to say, if they took the trouble even to respond to this ludicrous thread - but you won't.

And brilliant observation, Greg K

Originally Posted by Greg K

So, let me see if I understand your situation. You dreamed your whole life about "sailing the world" but never thought to learn how to sail and gain some experience in all those years.

And you are teachers? You know, specialists in learning..?

Your name is apt, though, "Blown Away". You definitely blow THIS sailor away...
Sheesh.