Fuel consumption: sail/motor. are you serious?!

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Comparing an America's Cup foiler to a 24' center console seems misleading.

Exactly - comparing slow sail to fast power is apples/oranges. Speed is expensive. My point is sailors on forums like this always - ALWAYS - make apples/oranges (bananas?) comparisons on fuel burn picking a ridiculous burn-rate (quad 300s, really???). Why not keep it real with a displacement trawler; compare costs over several years when a sailboat needs to replace rigging and sails?

No matter how you slice it, going fast in any boat - sail or power - is expensive. Design, construction, equipment, operation, and maintenance are much more expensive than basic cruising. Heck, a 7-knot trawler will cover 165nms in a day. When sailing, sailboats STW does not always equal VMG. Probably need a sailboat capable of sustained 8.0-8.5 boat to consistently make 165nm/day VMG.

Overall, the longterm difference in cost of a displacement trawler and a sailboat are not too different. But that's an inconvenient truth for forums like this. Much more convenient is touting the $400/hr figures as justification for freezing your bums off or roasting in the cockpit of a sailboat. Nothing wrong with that if you're really into sailing (vs cruising). Heck, fisherman spend a ton not because they get fish cheaper, but because they love the sport. But if you think you're sailing because you can't afford the fuel of a displacement-speed trawler, well, do the math. You'd be surprised.

[Shanachie]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Exactly - comparing slow sail to fast power is apples/oranges. Speed is expensive. My point is sailors on forums like this always - ALWAYS - make apples/oranges (bananas?) comparisons on fuel burn picking a ridiculous burn-rate (quad 300s, really???). Why not keep it real with a displacement trawler; compare costs over several years when a sailboat needs to replace rigging and sails?

Keeping it real:



Florida has roughly 1 million registered boats. More than 900,000 of them are powerboats, most of them relatively small and vastly overpowered. Open powerboats with three or four outboards are a common sight in the southern half of the state.


Sailboats and trawlers are the outliers.



Powerboats are a popular target not only for being wasteful, which most of them are, but also because so many are being driven by people who don't know what they're doing.



The Tampa Bay Times just had a video of a go-fast powerboat heading into a crowded beach at a high rate of speed because the driver (not captain) had passed out drunk at the wheel.



Most manatees in Florida have scars on their backs as testament to how well people navigate these boats as they race around at 40 or 60 or 80 mph. in no-wake zones.


Almost every day I sail, I hear Coast Guard chatter regarding people in these boats who race 40 miles offshore, then require rescue. They can pay at the pump, but they can't fix an outboard.



So no, I don't feel bad about criticizing them for wasting a precious resource and needlessly polluting our air so they can spend $800 catching three fish.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

Keeping it real:



Florida has roughly 1 million registered boats. More than 900,000 of them are powerboats, most of them relatively small and vastly overpowered. Open powerboats with three or four outboards are a common sight in the southern half of the state.


Sailboats and trawlers are the outliers.



Powerboats are a popular target not only for being wasteful, which most of them are, but also because so many are being driven by people who don't know what they're doing.



The Tampa Bay Times just had a video of a go-fast powerboat heading into a crowded beach at a high rate of speed because the driver (not captain) had passed out drunk at the wheel.



Most manatees in Florida have scars on their backs as testament to how well people navigate these boats as they race around at 40 or 60 or 80 mph. in no-wake zones.


Almost every day I sail, I hear Coast Guard chatter regarding people in these boats who race 40 miles offshore, then require rescue. They can pay at the pump, but they can't fix an outboard.



So no, I don't feel bad about criticizing them for wasting a precious resource and needlessly polluting our air so they can spend $800 catching three fish.

Ah yes, the holier than thou discussion. "4 legs good. 2 legs bad." I'm sure you find formula 1 racing wasteful.

Somehow you're superior because you sail. I was pretty sure that was the base of the oddball comparisons. Arrogance reminds me of Harley riders when I rode motorcycles.

Individual cruisers - power or sail - are great people. Collectively on forums like these, sailors leave something to be desired.

[Shanachie]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Individual cruisers - power or sail - are great people. Collectively on forums like these, sailors leave something to be desired.

I agree with you on cruisers.



However, you make the mistake of thinking that cruisers include people who operate 30-foot open powerboats with 1,000 horsepower clamped onto the stern.


For the most part, they are not cruisers. They're joy riders. They are the ones spending $400 or $500 an hour racing around bays and inlets. And they are the ones venturing far offshore with no seamanship skills.


I suppose they can afford the 5K towing charges they get hit with after the Coast Guard politely declines to come out and rescue them.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

I agree with you on cruisers.



However, you make the mistake of thinking that cruisers include people who operate 30-foot open powerboats with 1,000 horsepower clamped onto the stern.


For the most part, they are not cruisers. They're joy riders. They are the ones spending $400 or $500 an hour racing around bays and inlets. And they are the ones venturing far offshore with no seamanship skills.


I suppose they can afford the 5K towing charges they get hit with after the Coast Guard politely declines to come out and rescue them.

Sailors make a lot of boneheaded maneuvers. But there are not a bunch of people rooting against them like there are sailors criticizing everyone else. Not enough to enjoy your activity. Have to deride the folks you share the water with. Sad. But predictable.

I'm not a go fast guy. But I have a lot of respect for those who are on the water. 95% of powerboaters wave as they go by. Under 50% of sailors do. I guess they are the cool kids club.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Arrogance reminds me of Harley riders when I rode motorcycles.

Harley riders used to discriminate against you??

you’ll be glad to know things have changed. It’s more like this now.

(Language warning - mature audiences only)

You may have to click through to watch it on YouTube.

This is how Harley Riders are now seen. Lol

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDsWZ0Jw3Ik

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Harley riders used to discriminate against you??

Nah. I was a mechanic in a vintage motorcycle shop. Most of the Harley riders never heard of the bikes I rode so didn't pull their sanctimonious garbage. Truth be told, most were poser types - they'd buy a bunch of leather costume clothes and swig Jack Daniel's like they were tough guys. In real life they were orthodontists and accountants. Talked a good game. Couldn't deliver.

[sailorboy1]

BTW I went through my records and estimate that if I had a trawler and did 7 knots, got 2 mpg, and diesel averaged $4/gal then the past 7 years it would have cost me about an extra $2k/yr.

So more $$$, but not the hugs amount some, including me, figure

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Nah. I was a mechanic in a vintage motorcycle shop. Most of the Harley riders never heard of the bikes I rode so didn't pull their sanctimonious garbage. Truth be told, most were poser types - they'd buy a bunch of leather costume clothes and swig Jack Daniel's like they were tough guys. In real life they were orthodontists and accountants. Talked a good game. Couldn't deliver.

Exactly!! One of the most hilarious things I have ever seen is just what you are talking about.

next to where I built my boat was a motorcycle training facility.

A couple days a week all of these people would come in their Harley costumes. all dressed up with every accessory and every Harley patch and black and orange thing you can imagine.

And then you would see them trying to learn to ride a motorcycle for the first time at 50 years old. Ha ha ha! they were all wobbly and unsure of themselves and dropping the bikes. it had to be the funniest thing you have ever seen because they dressed up to kind of try to look tough and in the perfect costume. But they actually didn’t know how to ride a motorcycle at all. it was like they needed training wheels. Ha ha ha.

and the little video a link above definitely sums up how people feel about the Harleys these days.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

BTW I went through my records and estimate that if I had a trawler and did 7 knots, got 2 mpg, and diesel averaged $4/gal then the past 7 years it would have cost me about an extra $2k/yr.

So more $$$, but not the hugs amount some, including me, figure

Not surprised. I know of three sailors who curcumnavigated, then went to a powerboat for extended coastal cruising (eastern and western Caribbean, Maine to Alaska, and the Dashews who traded their Sundeer design for a power FPB and continued to cross oceans). All three state long-term costs between power and sail were roughly the same.

Cost to own sail vs a trawler are probably roughly the same for 80% of the owners. Where sail can be dramatically more economical is for the ultra-cheap crowd, and those who want to cross oceans or circumnavigate - a suitable powerboat is much more expensive and fuel does start to play a role. Other than those two use-cases, it's personal preference on how you want to use your boat. If you kove sailing, great. But if you do it because you think operating a sailboat is cheaper than operating a trawler, chances are you're fooling yourself. Which partially explains why so many sailors switch to power and so few switch back (BTW - one of the three examples above sold their Grand Banks 42 trawler after 6 years of full time cruising in the Caribbean and bought another sailboat to continue cruising into the south pacific).

Personally, the hot setup for me would be a trawler large enough to stow a pair of Lasers of similar.

[Chotu]

I looked at the trawler equation myself.

I do really enjoy sailing, but I didn’t want another slow boat. I was just tired of sailing at lower speeds or needing a hurricane to make 8 knots.

The fast sailboats were out of reach. They were extremely expensive.

but what I noticed is even the entry-level trawlers were extremely expensive. The purchase prices were quite high. comparable to the fast sailboats.

there were a lot of 1980s trawlers out there with that old dated interior that were going for $200k-$300k

what about that factor?

I was ready to give up sailing for the convenience (and interior space) of a trawler, but I found that the financial equation didn’t work out because the purchase price of the trawler was a bit high in comparison. now, I know the resale value is also higher. So it’s not much of an argument, but I didn’t want to tie that much money up in the boat.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I looked at the trawler equation myself.

I do really enjoy sailing, but I didn’t want another slow boat. I was just tired of sailing at lower speeds or needing a hurricane to make 8 knots.

The fast sailboats were out of reach. They were extremely expensive.

but what I noticed is even the entry-level trawlers were extremely expensive. The purchase prices were quite high. comparable to the fast sailboats.

there were a lot of 1980s trawlers out there with that old dated interior that were going for $200k-$300k

what about that factor?

I was ready to give up sailing for the convenience (and interior space) of a trawler, but I found that the financial equation didn’t work out because the purchase price of the trawler was a bit high in comparison. now, I know the resale value is also higher. So it’s not much of an argument, but I didn’t want to tie that much money up in the boat.

Powerboats can really get expensive. And they run the gamut on style and price. I'd say the sweet-spot for used trawlers is a good condition 42-footer in the $200k range. Similar accomodates to a 48-50 foot monohull (sail), or a 42-45 foot sail cat (which would carry higher berthing costs). Folks who want to spend $100k or less accept reduced condition or boats of poor pedigree. Many folks are comfortable with a $400k-$500k budget and buy a 10-year old boat that would sell for over $750k if purchased today. I doubt it's that much different for sailboats. I've always considered the Grand Banks 42 the bellweather for used boat market.

Like yourself Chotu, I am over-improving my boat and will never get my investment out, not even close. From a pure economics perspective, worst way to buy a boat. The best way - if you can front the money - is to buy a used Nordhavn (top brand of trawler - I liken it to Amel for sail)) in good condition. PAE, the builder of Nordhavns, has gone to extreme lengths to create their own ecosystem (sort of the Harley stuff - loved the video by the way) so resale is fast and high. It's been common for years for folks to sell their boat for >90% of their original purchase price, so the loss is modest, mostly whatever their upgrades were. I'm sure some brands of sail are similar (Amel?).

As far as speed, even a slow trawler is pretty fast. VMG = SOG which obviously isn't the case with sailboats. As mentioned above (Long Beach to La Paz - 1000nms at 7.5kts and 1.4 gph) 18-years ago I did the Baja Ha Ha cruisers rally on a friends Willard 40 (LWL = 36'). These are full displacement boats that would not do 10-kts with a pair of Pratt & Whitney's bolted to their decks. We were one of four powerboats in a fleet of 160, average of which was around 42-feet, so about the same size. Even though the three legs were mostly downwind for the sailboats; we were always in the first 15%-20% of the boats to arrive. One of the other powerboats was a 37-foot Taiwan Trawler with a single diesel (a $75k boat in todays market). An older couple who had converted from sail and were on their way to the Panama Canal.

My most memorable days on the water were on a sailboat. And no doubt, there is a sense of freedom and independence on a sailboat that is unparalleled. But for the vast majority of the days, I just found a sailboat to be a hassle. I love being on the water and boats in general, but I don't love sailing enough to put up with the hassle of owning and operating one. There are very few climates where a cockpit is comfortable for long spells of sitting.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Powerboats can really get expensive. And they run the gamut on style and price. I'd say the sweet-spot for used trawlers is a good condition 42-footer in the $200k range. Similar accomodates to a 48-50 foot monohull (sail), or a 42-45 foot sail cat (which would carry higher berthing costs). Folks who want to spend $100k or less accept reduced condition or boats of poor pedigree. Many folks are comfortable with a $400k-$500k budget and buy a 10-year old boat that would sell for over $750k if purchased today. I doubt it's that much different for sailboats. I've always considered the Grand Banks 42 the bellweather for used boat market.

Like yourself Chotu, I am over-improving my boat and will never get my investment out, not even close. From a pure economics perspective, worst way to buy a boat. The best way - if you can front the money - is to buy a used Nordhavn (top brand of trawler - I liken it to Amel for sail)) in good condition. PAE, the builder of Nordhavns, has gone to extreme lengths to create their own ecosystem (sort of the Harley stuff - loved the video by the way) so resale is fast and high. It's been common for years for folks to sell their boat for >90% of their original purchase price, so the loss is modest, mostly whatever their upgrades were. I'm sure some brands of sail are similar (Amel?).

As far as speed, even a slow trawler is pretty fast. VMG = SOG which obviously isn't the case with sailboats. As mentioned above (Long Beach to La Paz - 1000nms at 7.5kts and 1.4 gph) 18-years ago I did the Baja Ha Ha cruisers rally on a friends Willard 40 (LWL = 36'). These are full displacement boats that would not do 10-kts with a pair of Pratt & Whitney's bolted to their decks. We were one of four powerboats in a fleet of 160, average of which was around 42-feet, so about the same size. Even though the three legs were mostly downwind for the sailboats; we were always in the first 15%-20% of the boats to arrive. One of the other powerboats was a 37-foot Taiwan Trawler with a single diesel (a $75k boat in todays market). An older couple who had converted from sail and were on their way to the Panama Canal.

My most memorable days on the water were on a sailboat. And no doubt, there is a sense of freedom and independence on a sailboat that is unparalleled. But for the vast majority of the days, I just found a sailboat to be a hassle. I love being on the water and boats in general, but I don't love sailing enough to put up with the hassle of owning and operating one. There are very few climates where a cockpit is comfortable for long spells of sitting.

Looks like we arrived at a lot of the same conclusions.

My design addresses all of my complaints after decades of sailing older monohulls. I've never actually cared much about interior space and have found I just adjust to any size interior. So that's never been a factor.

What I do care about is getting somewhere, having a comfortable ride and not being out in the elements suffering.

That's why I went fast catamaran, longer lwl and running all controls inside the salon.

The boat I wanted didn't exist at the time and the closest was the Gunboat 48 at millions of $$$.

This is why I was forced to build.

But I was very close to going with trawlers. If only that initial purchase price was a little less steep. The other advantage to the build (there are too many disadvantages to count) was the payment plan. I paid what I could as time went by. It's the installment plan. Literally. I needed to install X component and paid for it. Lol

[Scrimshaw4]

While GPH fuel consumption is interesting to look at the reality is you want to understand what the MPG is. An efficient, diesel powered power boat should provide about 2 MPG +/- at it's designed cruise speed/RPM. Sailboats with diesel engines are about 6.5 MPG +/- at cruise RPM. This is rule of thumb, not hard numbers. JMHO

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Scrimshaw4

While GPH fuel consumption is interesting to look at the reality is you want to understand what the GPM is. An efficient, diesel powered power boat should provide about 2 GPM +/- at it's designed cruise speed/RPM. Sailboats with diesel engines are about 6.5 GPM +/- at cruise RPM. This is rule of thumb, not hard numbers. JMHO

am I reading this properly? Is it supposed to be GPM and not MPG?

2 gallons per mile for the trawler and 6 gallons per mile for the sailboat?

I'm getting .5 GPM with inefficient outboards at 6-7 knots.

I think something is off