advice re small-ish power boat

[shawnkillam]

Hello,
I realize this isn't exactly a cruisers question, but....

I have recently moved to a house in south Florida on a canal and want to get a used powerboat to take me out to the bay for fishing, kitesurfing, and occasionally wake boarding and just potting about. Most of the time there will be no more than three people.
I know a reasonable amount about sailboats but nothing at all about small power craft so any direction is appreciated.

Hull configuration, motor-size/type/fuel etc. Are there any that should be avoided and any sources of information on specific craft.

thx

[ranger58sb]

There are several typical configurations, and you'll just have to think about some of those to see what would work best for you. The jargon includes center console, walkaround, cuddy cabin, etc... so maybe just do some online shopping to get familiar with which is which.

Two basic features often guide purchases in these categories: the (a) head (or not), and the engine.

The head thing is often guided by your/crew requirements; want one? Or not? Many of the smaller powerboats do offer some choices, from porta-potty to built-in... and with center consoles, that's one of the things that could be down inside there. (Question would be how easy it is to get in and out; below about 26' it's maybe more difficult...)

The engine thing is about how you'll store the boat. In the water usually demands wither inboard or outboart, but NOT I/O (inboard/outboard) because the drive unit in the latter is typically still in the water... whereas inboard machinery is designed to remain submerged and outboard drive units can be tilted out of the water. OTOH, if you intend to store in a dry rack (boatel, etc.) or on a lift (perhaps at your house), an I/O unit can be OK.

-Chris

[shawnkillam]

Thanks Chris,
The place we bought has a boat lift rated to 10,000 pounds although I would be reluctant to test that number.

We don't need a head, a porta-potty would be more than adequate. Hopefully I won't be out overnight as that would indicate something has gone seriously wrong.

I have looked at the configurations as you suggested center console, duel console, flat boat, twin hull, v hull, etc. I have had a salesman suggest that a pontoon or tritoon boat would work. No surprise, every salesman I have spoken with says that the boat that they sell would be perfect for my needs. If they sell more than one brand, then both would be fine for what I need.
It may be that anything could be made to work, but I have no idea how to determine if this is the case. I also don't know how one determines how big a motor one needs. Is it simply a function of how fast you want to go or is there some size below which there is a safety issue?
Is there some inherent efficiency difference between inboard / outboard / IO motors?
If everything is more or less equal it would seem that an outboard would be easier to maintain and repair, if for no other reason than one can take it to the shop rather than the other way around.
Again thanks for your insights.

S

[Cheechako]

For wake boarding I think you don't want a pontoon boat, or a flat bottom, you want a boat that makes great wake. I would ask around with that group of people. My Son in Law wake boards and he has a special mid engine ski boat for doing it, no outdrive. Not that you must have that.
But do yourself a favor and get a boat with an enclosed head, even if it's small. There are even center consoles that have that. (extended console with head inside, or a small cuddy/raised deck forward).

I had a 26 center console with cuddy in Florida, and trust me, you want a small place to get out of the rain! It can be beautiful and an hour later be black sky and torrential downpour, lightening and thunder!

An outboard is harder to maintain and repair, but have the advantage of being readily replaced entirely. They are intricate pieces of machinery that only techs usually can work on. However a replacement big OB is going to be 20K or more.

A replacement inboard GM 350 long block is maybe $2000 + labor.
Either way you can tow it to the shop for work.
But I wouldn't focus too much on maintenance if you buy a newer boat. The new outboards are great, smooth and quiet for many years .

[a64pilot]

What ticked our boxes was a 21’ CC with a 175 hp motor.
We outfitted it as a dive boat and it was great for that, and at 21’ it was easily trailered and not too big to teach the kids to ski behind.
Plus a CC is real hard to beat for fishing.
The built in porta potty was in the center console, door in front. It could be pumped out via a deck fitting just like a real head, except of course the capacity was small, but plenty for day trips.
In Florida any kind of cabin without air conditioning, is a sweat box, I’ve been down that route and it’s just storage, and a lot of wasted space.

[a64pilot]

If you get a CC. You may want this, we had only the aft one as it could be left on when underway, the Summer sun can be brutal.
There are others, but I’d avoid any with supports as they get in the way of fishing.
If you look at the picture I posted, the two poles on top of the T-top were for the extender. They slid act and the fabric was stretchy and just slid over the poles.
https://www.t-topextender.com/?gclid...xoC9ssQAvD_BwE

[shawnkillam]

Thank you for your thoughts

A64pilot- how does your boat handle chop / waves? Do you take it to the ocean for diving and if so do you take it offshore? Do you have a 2 stroke or 4 stroke? Are you happy with that engine decision?
Cheechako- excellent point re engine maintenance cost. Do you have any thoughts re diesel versus gas? Straight shaft versus stern drive? I would lean toward a straight shaft for perceived simplicity but I have no actual knowledge to back up that perception.

thanks everyone for your input it is greatly appreciated.

[a64pilot]

Ours was a deep V and not a bay boat.
If you have any desire for going off shore, then do not even consider a bay boat, they are wonderful for the bay, lightweight and less expensive and faster with a smaller motor, but they are not meant for open water.
A deep V with high freeboard is.
That motor was a Mercury Verado, which in my opinion is a better motor than a Yamaha, it was a four stroke.
One weakness four stokes have is that a two stroke will kill one out of the hole, the hole shot is what it’s called and a four stroke is weak there, but it’s important because climbing onto plane is difficult.
Mercury solved that on the Verado with a supercharger, the supercharger makes big power, down low. They are also DTS or digital throttle and shift, no cables, and steering is power hydraulic.
The Verado is way ahead of anyone else’s outboard in my opinion and has stayed that way for years, and they have been out enough so that the technology is proven.

Of course that is an opinion, service is maybe an important consideration for you, maybe the best dealer and support trumps manufacturer cause all are good, there aren’t any bad ones. Not really.

Almost all smaller boats are outboards for a reason, and I’ve not seen an onboard or IO CC, one may exist of course, but it would be an odd ball.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by shawnkillam

We don't need a head, a porta-potty would be more than adequate. Hopefully I won't be out overnight as that would indicate something has gone seriously wrong.

I have looked at the configurations as you suggested center console, duel console, flat boat, twin hull, v hull, etc. I have had a salesman suggest that a pontoon or tritoon boat would work. No surprise, every salesman I have spoken with says that the boat that they sell would be perfect for my needs. If they sell more than one brand, then both would be fine for what I need.

It may be that anything could be made to work, but I have no idea how to determine if this is the case. I also don't know how one determines how big a motor one needs. Is it simply a function of how fast you want to go or is there some size below which there is a safety issue?

Is there some inherent efficiency difference between inboard / outboard / IO motors?

If everything is more or less equal it would seem that an outboard would be easier to maintain and repair, if for no other reason than one can take it to the shop rather than the other way around.

Ref head: Heh... neither of us can last more than about 4 hours without a pit stop... and the chances of us wanting to fool with a porta-potty are about slim to zip. OTOH, you gotta choose what's best for you...

Yes, what they sell is what they sell. Often they're right about what boats will work... although I suspect the pontoons/tritoons might be a bit of a leap... but then again, you're after the boat that works the way you want to work it. Imagine using a given boat style --really, seriously, walk yourself through kitesurfing on boat X, wakeboarding on boat X, etc. Maybe that exercise can give you a bit more insight.

Ref engines: Marinized inboard car engines can be economical, and newer ones can take advantage of advancing fuel technology, but can also come with potential service issues of all-round access isn't good (can mean more time involved to do simple stuff like oil changes). Inboard engines connected to outboard drive legs have some advantages, but the leg maintenance is something you have to keep up with. Given a lift, viable. Outboards are becoming more and more common, higher horsepower, some of these are car engines turned sideways... but in general, no, you don't lift and carry a 400-lb outboard down to the dealer for service... and then you might have an engine in the way of your kite or wakeboard lines.

And yes, engines are generally matched to the hull and to the mission. With new boats, often you'll have a choice of viable options. Need to go faster? Elect a larger engine. Want better fuel economy? Choose smaller.

Are there any boat rental places around where you are? Sometimes they'll have various styles, and you could maybe try several...

-Chris

[shawnkillam]

Thanks everyone for your input.
The thing about kiteboarding (kitesurfing) is that it is done when there is some wind, sometimes significant wind. 12knots is about minimum. In general wind comes with waves or at least chop so the boat would need to be able to handle a bit of rough water. I am gathering that a deep V hull would be preferred for these types of conditions. In the perfect world a jet drive would be nice, but I understand them to be inefficient, complicated and outrageously expensive. If a boat can be used for wake boarding it can be used for kiting.


Ranger 42c-- can a Marinized inboard car engine be maintained / repaired by the owner or is there something about them that necessitates going to a shop. I have always done my own car repairs and have way more tools than any sane person should have, but they have been purchased for auto work and may not apply to those engines adapted to marine usage.
--you make an excellent suggestion re rentals.



A64pilot-- do you have one of the top-side-extenders?

-- when you equipped the boat for diving did you have a dive platform for getting out. It looks like high free-board and the outboards would make egress with a lot of gear difficult.


Am I wrong in assuming that an inboard could not be beached or is there some cage around the prop that would permit this?


Thanks again for all your thoughts and insights.
SK

[Jammer]

Just as with sailboats, there is no universal boat. You have to make tradeoffs.

Originally Posted by shawnkillam

I am gathering that a deep V hull would be preferred for these types of conditions. In the perfect world a jet drive would be nice, but I understand them to be inefficient, complicated and outrageously expensive.

They're different boats. With a deep V you end up with a heavier boat with deeper draft that is rolley at anchor or displacement speeds, but it will go like hell through the waves with the throttle wide open.



Jet drives are extremely low draft at the expense of efficiency and noise. People use them for shallow -- very shallow -- rivers and estuaries. Typically they will work in 6" of water, sometimes less depending on the boat.

Can a Marinized inboard car engine be maintained / repaired by the owner or is there something about them that necessitates going to a shop. I have always done my own car repairs and have way more tools than any sane person should have, but they have been purchased for auto work and may not apply to those engines adapted to marine usage.

Many people do. It requires an awareness of marine-specific problems like the need for ignition-protected components (on a gasser) and the problems posed by corrosion.

It looks like high free-board and the outboards would make egress with a lot of gear difficult.

You can dive from anything if you put your gear on/off in the water. You can backroll from the sides with gear on with most boats.

Am I wrong in assuming that an inboard could not be beached or is there some cage around the prop that would permit this?

They can't really be beached but in most cases it is possible to set a stern anchor and tie the bow off to a tree or an anchor ashore. So the stern still floats. People use folding steps to get from the bow to the shore without getting their feet wet, very common here.

[a64pilot]

You need in my opinion a boarding platform to be a good dive boat, a really good ladder that goes deep into the water. Min two steps. But three is better, and storage space for dive gear and the bottles
I used roll control system to store bottles
http://rcs.designdesign.com
Then dri deck inside of the boat on the floor because you need it with scuba bottles or you will damage the deck
https://www.dri-dek.com/?gclid=Cj0KC...waAggREALw_wcB
I used a Dive-n-dog ladder, but any good Scuba ladder will do, a Scuba ladder needs to be stronger than a regular ladder with wider steps, because with all the weight of the dive gear it needs to be strong, and the wide steps cause narrow ones will hurt your feet, of course a dive ladder is a great ski ladder too.

Yes we had the rear T-top extender, you could leave it on underway even when pulling skiers. An outboard will not get in the way of a ski rope. It’s been done forever, but if you chose you can attach the rope to the T-top, some do.
We no longer have the boat, sold it to go cruising, the vast majority of boats in Fl are CC outboards because they are the most flexible boats, they do most everything OK. A Ski Nautique is a better ski boat of course but don’t take it off shore. Any specialty boat of course does it’s intended function better, but is worse for everything else.
Pic of ladder

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by shawnkillam

Do you have any thoughts re diesel versus gas? Straight shaft versus stern drive? I would lean toward a straight shaft for perceived simplicity but I have no actual knowledge to back up that perception.

thanks everyone for your input it is greatly appreciated.

I have been in many boats over the years with all these systems.


The era of stern drives has mostly come and gone. There are still some being made but not like in the 70s and 80s. With the technological progress made on outboards, an outboard is a better choice than a stern drive in almost all cases.


In the heydey of stern drives there were no 4-stroke outboards and the largest outboards were around 150 hp. In those days people got stern drives instead of outboards for reliability, fuel economy, and horsepower.



But today a stern drive doesn't get you much compared to an outboard. You get an uncluttered view to the stern. You get marginally better weight distribution. You may get a boat that is a little quieter. You also get the engine cluttering up the inside of your boat, an accordion seal that will sink the boat if it fails, and a shaft coupling mechanism that is inherently unreliable and expensive to replace. And for these doubtful benefits you pay extra and have higher ongoing maintenance costs.


There are two kinds of straight-shaft (inboard) power boats on today's market. There are water skiing boats, which benefit from the reduced wake that you get by moving the weight of the engine further forward. And there are larger cabin cruisers and house boats, who use them to keep a clean aft deck for swimming, dinghy launching, etc.


For the 19-23 foot runabouts, which is what you should be looking at, an outboard is almost always the best choice

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by shawnkillam

Thanks everyone for your input.
The thing about kiteboarding (kitesurfing) is that it is done when there is some wind, sometimes significant wind. 12knots is about minimum. In general wind comes with waves or at least chop so the boat would need to be able to handle a bit of rough water. I am gathering that a deep V hull would be preferred for these types of conditions.

Ranger 42c-- can a Marinized inboard car engine be maintained / repaired by the owner or is there something about them that necessitates going to a shop. I have always done my own car repairs and have way more tools than any sane person should have, but they have been purchased for auto work and may not apply to those engines adapted to marine usage.
--you make an excellent suggestion re rentals.

Am I wrong in assuming that an inboard could not be beached or is there some cage around the prop that would permit this?

Hmmm... yes, in chop I'd go for more of an ocean boat, not a bay boat.

Yes, no rocket science involved in marinized car engines. Probably the biggest difference is about how cooling works; in a "freshwater cooled" engine, coolant (anti-freeze & water) circulates through closed bundles inside hoses and heat exchangers... and raw water (sea water) circulates around those bundles within those same hoses and heat exchangers. IOW, water in place of cooling air flow. A few other differences -- spark arrestor instead of air cleaner, etc -- but in general a carb or a distributor or whatnot is often the same part as on a car. When it comes to maintenance, often the biggest issue is access, i.e., room to get a tool down in there, under that... while you're working upside down and backwards with a mirror to see what you're doing.

You can beach some inboards, but it's a bit tricky... possibly more common with I/O units and with outboards... but there's that pesky sandpaper affect on the hull, too. I think folks maybe also use anchors just off the sand...

-Chris

[shawnkillam]

Thanks everyone.
Jammer -- i probably used the wrong word. What I was referring to was getting back into the boat egress from the water which is an awkward usage for sure. The pictures that I have seen of dive platforms on outboards tend to be small things to the side of the motor. Are there bigger ones that go around the motor?
A64pilot- you say one needs a dive platform. Did you have one for your boat that is not in the picture? If so how did it attach.


One last question before I go out and try and test drive a few.

Is there a significant drawback to buying an older boat and if necessary replacing the engine?



thanks again
SK