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**s/v Beth** · 03-06-2014, 12:44

Stu- were is the potato patch? It was mentioned in that log entry too. How far offshore do you need to be to avoid it?

Stu Jackson · 03-06-2014, 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

Stu- were is the potato patch? It was mentioned in that log entry too. How far offshore do you need to be to avoid it?

newt, simple picture-this: Golden Gate on the right, runs N/S. Shipping channel in the middle runs left right, east to west. Golden Gate is about a mile wide N/S, three miles E/W from the bridge to Land's End on the S and Pt. Bonita on the N. Potato Patch is about a mile W of Pt. Bonita, and runs in a line N of the shipping channel which runs E/W out 11 nm to the Lightbucket, where the pilots get on and off the ships. The channel is dredged to 55-58 feet, the surrounding water is 45-120 feet deep, but the Patch is 28 feet! That's where the waves come, from the prevailing NW winds. Add the ebb from the Gate heading west and it can get really nasty at the east end of the shipping channel just west of Pt. Bonita if the NW winds are over 15 sustained for any long period. The Farallone Islands are 25 nm out. This is April to October conditions. Winter winds come from the south followed by heavy NW winds when the fronts move east.

OTOH, ocean sailing here can be quite delightful. From that to absolute terrifying...

If you ever have a question and don't have the charts, use Active Captain as a good free resource.

From June a few years ago:

Just coincidentally, my son and I were out in the ocean on Tuesday, June 12, 2012. It was nice and calm in the morning and we were heading out to the Farallons, 25 miles out. About 5 or 6 miles out north of Potato Patch off Bolinas a bit after 1200, the winds very quickly built to over 25 with quickly building seas later recorded at 7 feet at 7 seconds. We agreed it wouldn't be prudent to continue, even with our 110 jib and a reefed main. We double reefed the main and it was still too much. Then we hove to. A great relief and something everyone should know. We sat and talked about our options: dropping the main, reefing the jib some (I rarely if ever do that, since we use our smaller 85% jib for the summer, but still had our 110% "wintertime" jib up on this trip).

We concluded that it would safest to drop the main completely and run back into the Bay on jib alone, so I tethered onto the shroud and went up and dropped the main. Our Batt Cars and our double line reefing from the cockpit really helped in getting the main down, since I don't think regular slugs would have let it come down by itself, as ours did that day. I had concluded that even downwind I didn't want to mess with even the double reefed mainsail up, since gybing the main in those conditions just wasn't worth it. EVER.

Anyone who has to go up on deck to reef their main is crazy and lazy. Crazy 'cuz it's a dangerous place to be and lazy because it is so simple to rig the reefing lines back to the cockpit. The picture shows the jib backwinded in the heave to. The main came all the way down to where you see it, I just had to tie it off! It was a sloppy tie, but it worked.

We then talked about how to "get out of the heave to" position, since WONDERS OF WONDERS, the boat STAYED hove to with ONLY the jib up. We concluded later that this happened because the wind was so strong that the hull of the boat and the dodger was acting like a small mainsail in balancing the boat. My son also is very good on the wheel and kept the boat in the right position. Actually I was quite amazed. Love this boat and love knowing how to heave to. Two ways to get out: gybe and have the wind start behind us and CRACK the jib wide open, or release the jib and go off on port tack downwind (see the picture). Although I often get out of a heave to by just popping the jib and leaving the main on its side, rather than resetting the jib, we decided the shock load from a popping jib wasn't worth it, so we planned the maneuver, and I slowly eased the jib down while he steered carefully, first straight and then bearing off to starboard to start our downwind run back to the Gate. It worked perfectly. We sailed for the rest of the day (1300 to 1630) under jib alone, gybing back down through Bonita Channel, across the shipping lanes, and back in through Baker Beach and the Golden Gate Bridge all the way across The Bay to Clipper Cove.

Going back to my original reply to you, I forgot to tell my friend that not only should he have not been sailing downwind with only his mainsail up, but he could have let out some jib, hove to and done what we did to drop his main.

I fully endorse jib only. That's why there are backstays. :-)

The other thing you might want to keep in mind is that simplicity is KING when the sh*t hits the fan. I believe that the LESS complications you introduce, the safer you will be. That's why, for instance, I think running backstays are dangerous. I know they're required for some rigs, but then I'd never go near a boat that had 'em.

I think if I had the extra line you thought about using, it would simply get in the way. The very LAST thing I needed when I went up on the cabintop that afternoon was anything flogging away and hitting me in the jaw!

We were doing 6 knots with 26+ knots apparent wind when going "uphill", and after we we hove to and started sailing downwind, we saw 6.5 to 7 knots with 16-18 knots wind speed when we were going downwind after our maneuver. That means 25. It was blowin'! What was also good was that our course was almost DDW with just a tiny amount of enough wind slant to keep the jib full but the waves were on our stern, not our quarter, so it was a flatter boat motion rather than one of those rockin' & rollin' ones you get with quartering heavy seas.

I hope this answers your question. 8-) I don't know if I'd want to be out in 25++++ knots, this was more than enough. But it also reflects my belief that it's not so much the wind, but the waves that'll getcha. We've sailed in winds just as high in The Bay, but the water is much, much flatter, even on an ebb against the wind. Ocean sailing is completely different. The fetch is way longer and the swells under the wind waves makes for a completely different experience.

We do, both, however, love ocean sailing. While I don't have John Rousmaniere's experience in higher winds, and certainly bow to his knowledge, this worked well for us in those conditions. While I don't know for sure, and probably wouldn't want to try it, I would guess that I'd roll up more jib if the winds had continued to build, don't know what 35+ would do, but I wouldn't be out in my boat in those conditions (if I could help it). Then I'd go bare poles, the dodger would sail the boat!!! But the boat was great in all that "stuff" we encountered that day. I would also suggest a triple reef or much higher reef points if those were conditions you would expect. I have used our double reef only twice in 13 years with this boat. In the future, I'd go for a third reef or a higher second reef position. There was too much sail still up with a second reef. I don't "buy" the gusset theory, since it seems to me that the weight of the sail material alone would simply appear that it can't provide that support. It would depend on the strength of the leach for mast support? Hmm... The backstay is there to support the mast. Running a line from the masthead to the middle of the boom would appear to place more unnecessary stress on the gooseneck and the lower middle section of the mast.

My son later asked me whether that was the hardest sailing I'd ever done. Yup.

Best regards,

Stu

markpierce · 03-06-2014, 15:00

Thankfully, my trips out the gate have been without incident.

We'll never know what happened with the unfortunate sailor.

hellosailor · 03-06-2014, 15:41

When there seem to be more of anything in the Nooze, it is very hard to tell whether that reflects more of something happening, or just The Nooze figuring out it buys eyeballs on slow days.

No earthquakes, no mass murders? Hey, there must be some boat drama somewhere, right? There's nothing more important to inform people about, so, entertain them with horror stories.

mbianka · 03-06-2014, 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by markpierce

Thankfully, my trips out the gate have been without incident.

We'll never know what happened with the unfortunate sailor.

Seems Coast Guard got the EPIRB about 4 AM. Perhaps the fog, fatigue and sleep deprivation from sailing all night caused his boat to end up on the rocks. Wonder if he had a life jacket on? Though that water is pretty cold. Sad to see a 31 year old sailor die along with his dream just starting out.

Cavalier · 03-06-2014, 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbianka

Seems Coast Guard got the EPIRB about 4 AM. Perhaps the fog, fatigue and sleep deprivation from sailing all night caused his boat to end up on the rocks. Wonder if he had a life jacket on? Though that water is pretty cold. Sad to see a 31 year old sailor die along with his dream just starting out.

This is so sad.

Stu Jackson · 03-06-2014, 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbianka

Seems Coast Guard got the EPIRB about 4 AM. Perhaps the fog, fatigue and sleep deprivation from sailing all night caused his boat to end up on the rocks. Wonder if he had a life jacket on? Though that water is pretty cold. Sad to see a 31 year old sailor die along with his dream just starting out.

Perhaps I've missed something. Wasn't he going TO Hawaii?

Stu Jackson · 03-06-2014, 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellosailor

When there seem to be more of anything in the Nooze, it is very hard to tell whether that reflects more of something happening, or just The Nooze figuring out it buys eyeballs on slow days.

No earthquakes, no mass murders? Hey, there must be some boat drama somewhere, right? There's nothing more important to inform people about, so, entertain them with horror stories.

Kinda cruel, dontcha think? Actually better this than mass murders...sheez.

mbianka · 03-06-2014, 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Perhaps I've missed something. Wasn't he going TO Hawaii?

Indeed according to the Coast Guard report:

"The Coast Guard used information from the vessel's Emergency Personal Indicator Radio Beacon (EPIRB) and vessel operator's personal GPS tracker to narrow the search area and determine vessel departed the Grand St. Marina in Alameda, Sunday evening, with the intent to sail to Hawaii."

Sad that he did not get too far.

Stu Jackson · 03-06-2014, 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbianka

Indeed according to the Coast Guard report:

"The Coast Guard used information from the vessel's Emergency Personal Indicator Radio Beacon (EPIRB) and vessel operator's personal GPS tracker to narrow the search area and determine vessel departed the Grand St. Marina in Alameda, Sunday evening, with the intent to sail to Hawaii."

Sad that he did not get too far.

I agree, that's our marina, too.

**s/v Beth** · 04-06-2014, 17:20

I think this is a very sad case-could it have been avoided? I think so. He could of clipped in, sailed in the day and only gone short distances until his experience increased. Remember Slocum sailed for 30 years and then completely built his boat before setting out. Even he eventually disappeared. I don't think he tied in.
I know I would be dead from sailing in the Pacific today if I hadn't tied in, from a completely freak thing that pushed me up on the radar arch and broke a few bones. The mainsheet hit me with a force to eject me from the cockpit.
I agree this is sad. But the sea is like that up here. It gives no quarter.

Fog Bank · 04-06-2014, 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

I think this is a very sad case-could it have been avoided? I think so. He could of clipped in, sailed in the day and only gone short distances until his experience increased. Remember Slocum sailed for 30 years and then completely built his boat before setting out. Even he eventually disappeared. I don't think he tied in.
I know I would be dead from sailing in the Pacific today if I hadn't tied in, from a completely freak thing that pushed me up on the radar arch and broke a few bones. The mainsheet hit me with a force to eject me from the cockpit.
I agree this is sad. But the sea is like that up here. It gives no quarter.

Isn't it a bit premature to classify the deceased as inexperienced? Before rushing to judgement perhaps we should wait to learn what level of experience this man had...just a thought. Beyond that, a host of variables exist that we simply do not know. What if he was tied in, couldn't pull himself aboard and was forced to cut his tether?

gjordan · 04-06-2014, 19:57

10 hours from Alameda to the gate doesnt make any sense. Even in bad conditions , it is only a few hours sail. I wonder if he pulled away from the dock, and went out and anchored someplace to get away from the Yacht Club crowd, friends trying to get you drunk, or just the stress of leaving. On several deliveries, I waved goodby to the dock crowd, and went a few miles to a quiet cove and anchored for the night, so that I could get my mind settled for a passage, or to get my crew acclimated to the boat, without the distractions of the dock crowd. Leaving after a good nights sleep is always better than leaving tired, late in the day because of delays, or too much partying. I doubt we will ever know, but there is no logical reason (that I can see) for 10 hours. ______Grant.