West Marine Restructures Debt

[Mexican Hat]

I went to a WM store near Houston a few weeks ago to look at AIS units. When I asked the nearest salesperson where the AIS units were, he asked me what AIS was... I've noticed that the staff seem very young and mostly clueless lately, or to be more polite, very inexperienced in matters marine. I've noticed this at my local store in Corpus Christi as well. I didn't know about their financial troubles but assumed WM were doing this to save money. It seems a bit shortsighted to me. It makes sense to pay a premium when you get solid experience but not if the staff are lost at sea.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Mexican Hat

I went to a WM store near Houston a few weeks ago to look at AIS units. When I asked the nearest salesperson where the AIS units were, he asked me what AIS was... I've noticed that the staff seem very young and mostly clueless lately, or to be more polite, very inexperienced in matters marine. I've noticed this at my local store in Corpus Christi as well. I didn't know about their financial troubles but assumed WM were doing this to save money. It seems a bit shortsighted to me. It makes sense to pay a premium when you get solid experience but not if the staff are lost at sea.

The question is no longer which stores have uninformed staff, it is instead can you name any retail operations where the staff know anything about the products? Fawcett's in Annapolis is pretty darn good.
My WM is as you describe. But it is this way across much of the retail landscape. I have one local hardware store (regular hardware, not marine hardware) where I can go and the staff can answer questions. Apple store employees know their products. But in general it is getting so bad that you feel lucky if the employee has even heard of the product you are asking about and knows what aisle it might be in. Don't even think about them helping you solve a problem or make a useful recommendation.
The race to the bottom is ugly. I don't know about other countries, but the American public has been conned. Corporations have conned people into believing that price is everything and that more is better. It is not a conspiracy, but it plays into driving real wages lower. People were tricked into thinking it was OK that your real wages weren't growing because stuff was getting relatively cheaper with mass market retailing. This is how Walmart destroyed local businesses.
It will not turn out well.

[Island Time O25]

I got into sailing in the late 90s as a member of a sailing club. Up until that time the standard trajectory for many members was at some point to go from club membership to one's own boat.

Fast forward to today - the local sailing/boating club scene has exploded but the trajectory toward ownership has not. And probably in % terms there are fewer club members who go on to own a sailboat. The economics of boat ownership have become more expensive for an average boater. Not just the the acquisition costs, those IMO have been steady more or less but in terms of everything else connected with boat ownership.

Here in New England every years since the 90s a few marinas are converted into waterfront condominiums or some such. Same with boat storage yards. So the rates at the ones remaining are going through the roof, fast outpacing the inflation. In 2007 when I got my first sailboat I was paying $27/ft for winter storage. It is $75/ft for this upcoming winter. Almost 3 times more in 15 years. And those years had supposedly low inflation.

Much worse situation with various fees, excise taxes, haul out and launch costs, etc. So many of the younger boaters who 30-40 years ago would've gravitated toward ownership, today are stuck in clubs and other sharing arrangements. And subsequently the only items they are buying marine wise are the occasional binoculars, handheld VHFs and lots of marine related clothing.

It's sort of like the difference between house owners/landlords and tenants.

BTW I once needed not a cheap item ASAP and asked my good friend who was a maintenance manager at one of the local sailing clubs if I can get an industry discount through their supplier. Turns out the club management was paying even more than WM prices because their supplier would literally deliver practically anything in their catalog the next day. The club's management philosophy was that it would be more expensive to lose a paying member due to boat's unavailability then to overpay for a next day delivery or same day repair.

[lestersails]

Island Time 025 - yep. The problem you are describing related to the overall divergence of labor vs mass manufacturing costs. The problem is that anything that requires human labor is relatively increasing in cost. The same reason why you throw away and replace your TV instead of fixing it.
We are starting to see the same thing in autos. Auto insurance is going up fast because repair costs are rising so fast.
Anything that takes a lot of human labor is becoming increasingly unaffordable. Unfortunately, boat maintenance and upkeep is labor intensive.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Island Time 025 - yep. The problem you are describing related to the overall divergence of labor vs mass manufacturing costs. The problem is that anything that requires human labor is relatively increasing in cost. The same reason why you throw away and replace your TV instead of fixing it.
We are starting to see the same thing in autos. Auto insurance is going up fast because repair costs are rising so fast.
Anything that takes a lot of human labor is becoming increasingly unaffordable. Unfortunately, boat maintenance and upkeep is labor intensive.

Coupled with general decline in acquiring skills needed to DIY we have a population unable to do even rudimentary maintenance on their vehicles or their boats.

In high school in the late 1970s I took a few power and auto mechanics classes. Today, I don't think that that school is even offering such classes. I praise my auto mechanics teacher for giving me the basic knowledge to stand on each time I tackle another boat project. Saved me $1000s in the past 15 or so years. Not to mention the joy of making something work which was broken.

[Kettlewell]

Coupled with general decline in acquiring skills needed to DIY we have a population unable to do even rudimentary maintenance on their vehicles or their boats.

I think the bigger problem is that boats are so much more complicated and full of technology. In the past we bought boats to live a simple life and get away from all the complication of the modern world. Today everyone brings all that complication with them. Look at all the threads on here dedicated to dealing with complex installation and maintenance problems. I remember when a lot of boats had electrical systems that consisted of maybe two batteries and an alternator. You could fix almost everything on a boat with a small set of handtools. Nobody had computers, cell phones, chart plotters, windlasses, refrigeration, watermakers, etc. Not saying that stuff is all bad, just that today's cruising sailboats guarantee you will be repairing lots of stuff continuously, spending lots of money to do so, and will need the skills to figure out what is happening.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I think the bigger problem is that boats are so much more complicated and full of technology. In the past we bought boats to live a simple life and get away from all the complication of the modern world. Today everyone brings all that complication with them. Look at all the threads on here dedicated to dealing with complex installation and maintenance problems. I remember when a lot of boats had electrical systems that consisted of maybe two batteries and an alternator. You could fix almost everything on a boat with a small set of handtools. Nobody had computers, cell phones, chart plotters, windlasses, refrigeration, watermakers, etc. Not saying that stuff is all bad, just that today's cruising sailboats guarantee you will be repairing lots of stuff continuously, spending lots of money to do so, and will need the skills to figure out what is happening.

This hit home particularly hard for me when I realized I had to buy a brand new laptop to fix my Outboards this spring.

Also when I had to buy a Raymarine Axiom 9 to update a non functional autopilot head.

There was no other path to work on these items.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I think the bigger problem is that boats are so much more complicated and full of technology. In the past we bought boats to live a simple life and get away from all the complication of the modern world. Today everyone brings all that complication with them. Look at all the threads on here dedicated to dealing with complex installation and maintenance problems. I remember when a lot of boats had electrical systems that consisted of maybe two batteries and an alternator. You could fix almost everything on a boat with a small set of handtools. Nobody had computers, cell phones, chart plotters, windlasses, refrigeration, watermakers, etc. Not saying that stuff is all bad, just that today's cruising sailboats guarantee you will be repairing lots of stuff continuously, spending lots of money to do so, and will need the skills to figure out what is happening.

True that. But each of us at some point makes a decision how complicated or how simple he or she wants their lives to be. The other day I was talking to an in-law of a relative of mine who is in the Caribbean leg of his 1st circumnavigation. His biggest pet peeves so far were issues with electronics, corrosion of parts and wiring which on my 40+ year old boat are non-issues, etc. etc.

I got the impression that his newish Beneteau will not last even half of 40+ years of my 1980 Mariner 36. Don't get me wrong - his is a very nice and surprisingly sturdy boat for the price. And very seaworthy, etc. But the hassle of keeping all the doo-dahs and whistles working brings to cruising lots of never ending distractions at best.

We have done it to ourselves I'm afraid, by straying away from the initial premise of sailing/cruising as a simple, "getaway from the world hassles" activity by bringing the world and its hassles aboard with us. Kind of defeats the original premise if you ask me.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Anything that takes a lot of human labor is becoming increasingly unaffordable. Unfortunately, boat maintenance and upkeep is labor intensive.

I attribute that to a compressing of wage scales. Putting aside the bizarrness of the very top of the scale, we as a society have been working towards leveling the pay scale. We believe the McDonald's burger flipper should make a living wage. We have minimum wages that are far higher than what minimum wages used to earn. For better or worse, we now live in a society where a middle level manager cannot afford to have a full-time servant.
I often look at the large scale civil works projects that were built by manual labor, stone bridges, the hand dug Panama canal, and I'm struck by the wage inequality that allowed the people funding that work to afford the labor that accomplished the work.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I attribute that to a compressing of wage scales. Putting aside the bizarrness of the very top of the scale, we as a society have been working towards leveling the pay scale. We believe the McDonald's burger flipper should make a living wage. We have minimum wages that are far higher than what minimum wages used to earn. For better or worse, we now live in a society where a middle level manager cannot afford to have a full-time servant.
I often look at the large scale civil works projects that were built by manual labor, stone bridges, the hand dug Panama canal, and I'm struck by the wage inequality that allowed the people funding that work to afford the labor that accomplished the work.

We have placed lower tier least productive labor force on welfare of one sort or another. That took out the base from the affordability of massive public projects which required a lot of unskilled labor. So now 1 mile of any road, not even an interstate, even adjusted for inflation, costs as much as tens of miles cost in 1950s. Precisely because those who used to be hired for meal wages are now well taken care of by the government without any serious requirement to work.

Same with any other manufacturing process requiring significant amount of unskilled labor which cannot be done by the machines.

Not just the Panama Canal but also the the railroads, interstate system, electrification of the country, huge dam projects, etc., etc. Today we can't even afford to put EV chargers where they need to be. Never mind something more complicated than that.

[KayZee]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Their price matching used to be good. The last time I checked, they would only match a brick and mortar store within a fairly small radius. Why would I go to the research to find a lower price and then go to West Marine when I could go to the guy who actually is selling it for that price?!

Maybe they've changed it again, but right now their price match is nearly worthless.

Where I am, in the greater Los Angeles area, there are no brick and mortar stores left only WM. Unfortunately half the staff are college students who can barely tell stem from stern let along help you choose a teak cleaner.

On another note, private eguity money wrecks EVERYTHING it touches. The root problem is not profit, I'm no communist; it's problem is that it turns the primary focus of the company from quality product to pleasing inverstors I have personally seen with companies like, West Marine, Guitar Center, Fender et. al. trying to manage it's debt instead of inventory, training, innovation etc.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by KayZee

... problem is that it turns the primary focus of the company from quality product to pleasing investors ...

Bingo! I don't know when the purpose of a corporation changed from providing goods and services to enriching stockholders. That just doesn't make any sense. Providing some value to the customer comes first. You can also make the argument that this is good for the economy, and society as a whole.

If the company is providing something the market wants, and you really believe that they've got a profitable business model, go ahead and invest. Your return on investment is a side benefit of a well-run and well-focused company. Not it's only purpose.

[Lateral Hazard]

Originally Posted by KayZee

Where I am, in the greater Los Angeles area, there are no brick and mortar stores left only WM. Unfortunately half the staff are college students who can barely tell stem from stern let along help you choose a teak cleaner.

On another note, private eguity money wrecks EVERYTHING it touches. The root problem is not profit, I'm no communist; it's problem is that it turns the primary focus of the company from quality product to pleasing inverstors I have personally seen with companies like, West Marine, Guitar Center, Fender et. al. trying to manage it's debt instead of inventory, training, innovation etc.

Just imagine, you decide to sell your large business to a private equity firm. They give you, and your investors 1 billion dollars to sell.
When the deal is consummated the private equity group has to pay staff and partners and investors a generous profit. They immediately get a mortgage on West Marine for 1.5 billion dollars to pay back its costs and return it to partners and investors.
They get their money back and more as well as saddling West Marine with paying the 1.5 million mortgage. P/E does not care as if they default on the payments theP/E firm has them declare bankruptcy. I cannot believe people do not understand this.

[Shanachie]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I attribute that to a compressing of wage scales. We believe the McDonald's burger flipper should make a living wage. We have minimum wages that are far higher than what minimum wages used to earn. For better or worse, we now live in a society where a middle level manager cannot afford to have a full-time servant.
I often look at the large scale civil works projects that were built by manual labor, stone bridges, the hand dug Panama canal, and I'm struck by the wage inequality that allowed the people funding that work to afford the labor that accomplished the work.

Sailingharry, think of that $20-an-hour wage for McDonald's workers as insurance that they don't spit on your burger. Workers who don't make a living wage tend to be resentful.


Also, I dare you to pull an eight-hour shift at a fast-food restaurant. You would change your tune quickly. Those folks work harder than most of us ever have. There is dignity in honest work.



Actually, wages were far more equal in the U.S. from the 1950s through the early 1980s. I remember when auto workers and tradesmen could afford to buy good sailboats and new cars.


I was a young minimum wage worker back then. Even making a couple of bucks an hour, I could afford to split an apartment with some buddies. Somehow, we found money to go out and drink beer, too.


You can't do that today in many places on minimum wage.


If you Google stories about wage growth, you will discover that almost all of the income growth over the last 40 years has gone to people in the upper 10 percent.


Working people have lost ground to the point where they have trouble affording a place to live and almost no hope of having money in the bank. They get crushed by an illness or a big bill.


I used to be one of them. Now I'm in the top 10 percent. So I have a good idea what I'm talking about.



Lastly, my heart truly goes out for the "middle level manager" who can't afford a "full-time servant." He surely is suffering much more than the single mother working a blue-collar job to support her family.

[Training Wheels]

I once ordered a length of line from West Marine. Evidently the first spool was 2’ short. They sent me a section 2’ less than I ordered, and an additional piece 2’ long! [emoji23]