The GGR race, discussion and news

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

^^ I am also following mark closely. As the only Aussie for one reason, but mostly because he is a nice guy doing it without sponsorship or any fuss. I am especially looking forward to seeing Coconut in storm bay in a few months.

Can’t find the “green-with-envy” emoticon here but consider it posted if I could.

One small quibble, regarding the Aries windvane on Coconut. Wouldn’t call it “old” given it was completely rebuilt back at the factory. Perhaps a category of “refurbished” should be added to your windvane summary?

[GILow]

Hang on... wasn’t there another Aussie?

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by GILow

Hang on... wasn’t there another Aussie?

Yeah, Kevin Farebrother, a very acomplished mountaineer. He pulled the pin in the Canaries. Couldn't sleep and made the smart decision that singlehanded sailing wasn't for him.

The list of windvanes is Don's, I just cut and pasted it from his article. But still coconuts is an old unit. Says a lot for the durability of the Aires.

By the way one of his chats he mentions that a poled out headsail and staysail is working much better in the light than his spinnaker because it's much more stable and doesn't collapse. That's been my experience as well, and the poled out headsails are very course stable, even in very light airs.

[Snowpetrel]

CHALLENGES for TAPIO...message overnight...STRUGGLING ELECTR PROBS SOLAR PAN & H2O GEN DMGD, ENG DSNT START.

Doesn't sound very good, and I think VDH also has solar panel issues. A lot of them have installed the semi flexible panels.
But Web Chiles had a very high failure rate with his offshore so it will be interesting to see how they hold up. The real electricity needs are low, and RKJ ended up with no electricals at all for the last 3rd of his trip, so it can be done, but no HF radio would make life harder.

A lot of them have water generators, I guess we will see how they cope with the southern ocean...

[er9]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

CHALLENGES for TAPIO...message overnight...STRUGGLING ELECTR PROBS SOLAR PAN & H2O GEN DMGD, ENG DSNT START.

Doesn't sound very good, and I think VDH also has solar panel issues. A lot of them have installed the semi flexible panels.
But Web Chiles had a very high failure rate with his offshore so it will be interesting to see how they hold up. The real electricity needs are low, and RKJ ended up with no electricals at all for the last 3rd of his trip, so it can be done, but no HF radio would make life harder.

A lot of them have water generators, I guess we will see how they cope with the southern ocean...

Yeah i think im more interested in how all the equipment is fairing rather than the sailors. this is a perfect extreme experiment being done on some rather costly high end equipment. i'm taking notes.

[Snowpetrel]

^^ yep, its going to be facinating seeing how all the gear survives.

One thing that seems to be happening now is a bunch of halyards are breaking. They can't use dyneema so most are probably using polyester, or maybe wire? Anyway seems like in some cases they are only lasting 5000 miles or so. Maybe they need to more regularly 'freshen' the nip.

[Peter Foerthman]

Good morning,

informative discussion ... perhaps it might be of interest to get some facts that came to my notice unfortunately too late to be able to withdraw from a very particular cooperation with a person being unwilling and unable for any kind of dialog.

Just a few days ago I have got information that Istvan Kopar has been imperatively requested not to convert his original steering in favor to a direct Cobra drive due to the risks of potential wind vane steering problems. That discussion took place 18 months ago. While he never communicated this to me prior to the start ... I have got this info only during his first podcast at sea. here the way to some facts:

Mindelo findings | Windpilot Blog EN

Regarding Evans Starzingers mentioning about his experiences with windpilot I should mention, that my Pacific Plus series had undergone substancial design change due to restrictions in terms of max packing sizes of the airlines. This was in 2000, the year of Evans decision. we had to change design towards a rudder that had to be taken off due to size limitations. The first series, eventhough strongly over egnineered, suffered some material fatigue due to vibrations from prop wash i.e. under engine, once the aux rudder has not been entirely - and securely - locked. The particular position of both, aux and main rudder behind one each other on the van de Stadt design gave some headaches ... and free of charge replacement deliveries were unable to cure the situation. We live and learn. Which was the reason of some substancial upgrades ... perhaps able to change an opinion of a yachtsman, reflecting 15 year old experiences milled through to see what kind of product improvements took place:

History | Windpilot Blog EN

regards from Germany

Peter Foerthmann
Windpilot Blog EN | Welcome to the world of silent self-steering

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

^^ yep, its going to be facinating seeing how all the gear survives.

One thing that seems to be happening now is a bunch of halyards are breaking. They can't use dyneema so most are probably using polyester, or maybe wire? Anyway seems like in some cases they are only lasting 5000 miles or so. Maybe they need to more regularly 'freshen' the nip.

Can't be wire then, uh?

Our wire and polyester halyards easily last 30k+ miles.

I would guess some did not test their hardware enough. I know Susie sailed an Atlantic loop up first. Not sure many other did though.

What caught my eye is how two of top three boats seem to sync their courses with EXPECTED winds.

So are they allowed gribs and wx routing or not? For from what they are doing one could easily draw a conclusion that they are.

b.

[barnakiel]

Re Rustler 36 vs. any other design.

We must note some participants got their Rustlers specifically for the challenge. Thus there must be something going on in the classic racing circles that dictated such a choice. The boat may have an opinion of being 'fast' (ha ha ha). Otherwise think of GGR rules as a box rule. You can't do this, you can't have that. Once you tick off all the can't boxes, you are left with only a handful of available designs, some of which are basically sailing tubs. And you want to race.

Another story is that different designs have different best sailing angles. Some may be best in the SO where there will be a lot of variables and some crazy wave action. Others will do great oscillation passages, where you either close reach or beam reach. I think the winner will be decided in the SO, and it will be one of the top 5 at the first cape. The rest will be simply to far back to catch up.

Anyways, whoever wins, will likely set some sort of a benchmark.

Except that this will be a ggr box rule benchmark, not much use for cruisers, who are not making their hull and rig choices to an arbitrary and limiting set of rules.

b.

[er9]

yeah i'm still a little confused on some of the rules...especially the boat choice. Don mentioned offhand in one of his videos, if i remember correctly, about the choices boiling down to safety. i would have liked to see a wider variety of boats. surely there are a TON of other boats that could be on his short list.

as we are experiencing now....equipment (including the boat) could make or break a race for someone. its not all about sailing skill. preparation and equipment choice seem to play an equal role. kind of dissapointed with the rules on boat selection.

edit: he answers this question in the first part of his latest video series.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by er9

its not all about sailing skill. preparation and equipment choice seem to play an equal role.

Ocean racing is never just about sailing skill. Just as important is knowing when and how hard to push, choosing and using gear so that it holds up, how to deal with things that break anyway, how risky you are with routing decisions, etc. We could call these factors "seamanship". Doing it singlehanded makes all this even harder.

Did they have weatherfax back in the day? Otherwise, I suppose they are limited to SSB voice reports.

[mikeod]

The more I read about it the less I like it. Between the list of acceptable boats and the outrageous entree fees seems to go against the spirit of the race. The next GGR with the Mottesier class where you have to buy a yard built boat to be allowed in the class. I don't like it. Why charge over 10,000 for an entry fee?

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by mikeod

The more I read about it the less I like it. Between the list of acceptable boats and the outrageous entree fees seems to go against the spirit of the race. The next GGR with the Mottesier class where you have to buy a yard built boat to be allowed in the class. I don't like it. Why charge over 10,000 for an entry fee?

Each to their own. I think the entry fee is high; but it is a very long race and I doubt Don will be making any money out of it with insurances, flights, boat hire, media costs etc.

As I understand it on boat choice you can submit your proposed design and they will decide if it is safe, strong and meets the spirit of the rules and the race. If so it becomes an approved design. So the approved design list isn't set in stone. I guess Don just wants to ensure the boats are suitible for the voyage and all roughly equally as slow as each other.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Can't be wire then, uh?

Our wire and polyester halyards easily last 30k+ miles.

I would guess some did not test their hardware enough. I know Susie sailed an Atlantic loop up first. Not sure many other did though.

What caught my eye is how two of top three boats seem to sync their courses with EXPECTED winds.

So are they allowed gribs and wx routing or not? For from what they are doing one could easily draw a conclusion that they are.

b.

No, they are not allowed any routing advice or gribs, but they can get detailed forcasts over HF or Ham, and I suspect Peche and VdH are getting better forcasts and spending much more time routing than Slats. And it looks like it may pay off for them.

I get the impression that the broken halyards are polyester. Likely chafe, now they are loading them up on the wind. It could be a big issue for some of the boats.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Peter Foerthman

Good morning,

informative discussion ... perhaps it might be of interest to get some facts that came to my notice unfortunately too late to be able to withdraw from a very particular cooperation with a person being unwilling and unable for any kind of dialog.

Just a few days ago I have got information that Istvan Kopar has been imperatively requested not to convert his original steering in favor to a direct Cobra drive due to the risks of potential wind vane steering problems. That discussion took place 18 months ago. While he never communicated this to me prior to the start ... I have got this info only during his first podcast at sea. here the way to some facts:

Mindelo findings | Windpilot Blog EN

Regarding Evans Starzingers mentioning about his experiences with windpilot I should mention, that my Pacific Plus series had undergone substancial design change due to restrictions in terms of max packing sizes of the airlines. This was in 2000, the year of Evans decision. we had to change design towards a rudder that had to be taken off due to size limitations. The first series, eventhough strongly over egnineered, suffered some material fatigue due to vibrations from prop wash i.e. under engine, once the aux rudder has not been entirely - and securely - locked. The particular position of both, aux and main rudder behind one each other on the van de Stadt design gave some headaches ... and free of charge replacement deliveries were unable to cure the situation. We live and learn. Which was the reason of some substancial upgrades ... perhaps able to change an opinion of a yachtsman, reflecting 15 year old experiences milled through to see what kind of product improvements took place:

History | Windpilot Blog EN

regards from Germany

Peter Foerthmann
Windpilot Blog EN | Welcome to the world of silent self-steering

Peter, an unfortunate situation for sure, I think reading between the lines of Kopars voice chats make it pretty clear it's operator error as much as any fault with the gear.

The new plus rudders look great, love the shape and design. Any reason you didn't specify a plus model rather than the standard? It seems to me with those big barn door rudders and wheel steering it will always be challenge and a balanced auxiliary rudder would go a long way to fixing any issues. Prehaps Kopar could hook his up to the emergency rudder.