Merged Threads: HMS Bounty

[Captain Jeffry]

Originally Posted by Stray-Cat

Agree
Heres the video

interesting

[zeehag]

go to bounty site look at path
THEY WERE NOT INSIDE HURRICANE AT ANY TIME DURING TRIP,NOT EVEN IN CONE OF DEATH . go to bounty site and SEE FOR YOURSELVES. YOU MAKE COMMENTS WITHOUT READING OR LOOKING AT THE INFORMATION POSTED TO PREVENT FOLKS FROM DOING EXACTLY THAT WHICH YOU ARE DOING. HE WAS NOT IN ANY PART OF THE HURRICANE. EVER. LOOK IT UP.

the path taken was published as was the hurriane and the cold front. you really should read the material before saying things that are no ttrue. LOOK AT THE PATH then say he was in a freeking hurricane.HE WAS NOT IN ANY PART OF IT. hurricanes are not 40 mph winds and not 13 ft seas. he was west of the hurricane and east of the storm front. between the fronts. LOOK IT UP

[Captain Jeffry]

So the plan was to squeeze south between the two fronts?

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by zeehag

go to bounty site look at path
THEY WERE NOT INSIDE HURRICANE AT ANY TIME DURING TRIP,NOT EVEN IN CONE OF DEATH . go to bounty site and SEE FOR YOURSELVES. YOU MAKE COMMENTS WITHOUT READING OR LOOKING AT THE INFORMATION POSTED TO PREVENT FOLKS FROM DOING EXACTLY THAT WHICH YOU ARE DOING. HE WAS NOT IN ANY PART OF THE HURRICANE. EVER. LOOK IT UP.

the path taken was published as was the hurriane and the cold front. you really should read the material before saying things that are no ttrue. LOOK AT THE PATH then say he was in a freeking hurricane.HE WAS NOT IN ANY PART OF IT. hurricanes are not 40 mph winds and not 13 ft seas. he was west of the hurricane and east of the storm front. between the fronts. LOOK IT UP

It seems like a fine hair you are splitting. New York City was not 'hit by a hurricane' either, and yet it's under water. That damage, was caused by Sandy, period.

He was sailing in an ocean with a SIXTEEN HUNDRED MILE WIDE cyclone moving in. What's the 'safe zone' in a new kind of storm which we don't even really know how to name?

[Stray-Cat]

I have been following this thread with interest
The main question is how and why did this happen, and most importantly to me ,how could this tragedy be prevented
I was a crewman on commercial fishing vessels throughout the 80's
In reflection we took some real stupid chances in the goal of making money , and at times rushing to make delivery deadlines
Later on I bought my own fishing vessel, and found that when I was calling the shots that I was a most conservative skipper
Only had a couple of times that I made some errors ,always weather was a factor,and as I was being conservative we had escaped the worst as I had acted early

Much speculation and second guessing in this thread on the weather conditions out there and what the captain was thinking
All facts will come out eventually in the inquest
As to the captain,well just watch the video I linked to
No speculation there,those are his words......extraordinary

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by Stray-Cat

Agree
Heres the video

Thanks for the link. In the middle of the video the captain was asked if anyone had ever fallen overboard into the sea. The captain paused, and said that was a question that was bad luck to answer. He knocked on wood, and answered no.

In superstition terms, answering that question was to a degree, flying in the face of God. Like saying the Titanic was unsinkable.

Interesting video link. Thanks for posting it. Pitty they did not tour below deck.

[Captain Jeffry]

Originally Posted by xymotic

It seems like a fine hair you are splitting. New York City was not 'hit by a hurricane' either, and yet it's under water. That damage, was caused by Sandy, period.

He was sailing in an ocean with a SIXTEEN HUNDRED MILE WIDE cyclone moving in. What's the 'safe zone' in a new kind of storm which we don't even really know how to name?

SHIVER! I have had many opportunities to venture out on a delivery in less winds than the 40+ they apparently had and have elected to wait until the front passed. Perhpos a week. Guess I'm not that courageous or brave. Seriously! Why??!

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by zeehag

the bounty WAS NOT IN THE HURRICANE.
READ THE BOUNTY'S PAGES AND SEE WHAT THEY WERE DOING.
is all written plainand simple in english able to be understood by all who read.
all were in lifeboat. 2 were swept out of lifeboat.
winds only 40 kts--NOT HURRICANE WINDS, are they???
seas 13 ft--SANDY HAD 38 FT SEAS . look at the paths on bountys pages--THEY WERE NOT IN THE HURRICANE.

Zee,
I don't know how many hurricanes that you've been in, if any, because your statement demonstrates that you don't know anything about hurricanes. In hurricanes the only place the high winds are constant is in the eye wall. In the rest of the storm the high winds are in band of intense squalls spiraling in towards the center. In between the squalls theres often relatively light almost misty rain and much lighter winds. From the published photos it is clear that the photos of the rescue and sinking that this occured between the bands. They could not have gotten clear pictures in the bands. The reports say that the winds were 40 knots and the seas 13-18 feet (I've seen both numbers reported) at the time of the rescue. This says absolutely nothing about the conditions that cause the ship to founder. I was in Whortonville NC that night which is about 60 miles inside of Cape Hatteras. We were in the hurricane, not in the eye wall but still in the hurricane. We were getting bands of wind and rain in which the winds were twice what they were between bands. In these bands winds were 40+ and we were 150 miles further from the center of the storm than the Bounty was. We were also getting the characteristic almost misty rain between bands. You can live with your delusion that the Bounty was not in a hurricane if you want, but I was in the same storm and I was in a hurricane.

[sabray]

Well give zee the benefit and call it something else. In my book the guy was sailing damn near one nasty big storm with hurricane force winds here is excerpt of noaa bulletin and sat shot at the time. Im guessing you ask anyone on that boat and their going to say they were sailing in a hurricane at some point.
BULLETIN
HURRICANE SANDY ADVISORY NUMBER 28
NWS NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL182012
500 AM EDT MON OCT 29 2012

...SANDY STRENGTHENS...EXPECTED TO BRING LIFE-THREATENING STORM
SURGE...COASTAL HURRICANE WINDS AND HEAVY APPALACHIAN SNOWS...


SUMMARY OF 500 AM EDT...0900 UTC...INFORMATION
----------------------------------------------
LOCATION...35.9N 70.5W
ABOUT 285 MI...460 KM E OF CAPE HATTERAS NORTH CAROLINA
ABOUT 385 MI...615 KM SSE OF NEW YORK CITY
MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS...85 MPH...140 KM/H
PRESENT MOVEMENT...N OR 360 DEGREES AT 15 MPH...24 KM/H
MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE...946 MB...27.94 INCHES


WATCHES AND WARNINGS
--------------------
CHANGES WITH THIS ADVISORY...

NONE.

SUMMARY OF WATCHES AND WARNINGS IN EFFECT...

A TROPICAL STORM WARNING IS IN EFFECT FOR...
* NORTH OF SURF CITY TO DUCK NORTH CAROLINA

DISCUSSION AND 48-HOUR OUTLOOK
------------------------------
AT 500 AM EDT...0900 UTC...THE CENTER OF HURRICANE SANDY WAS LOCATED
NEAR LATITUDE 35.9 NORTH...LONGITUDE 70.5 WEST. SANDY IS MOVING
TOWARD THE NORTH NEAR 15 MPH...24 KM/H. A TURN TOWARD THE
NORTHWEST IS EXPECTED TODAY...FOLLOWED BY A TURN TOWARD THE
WEST-NORTHWEST TONIGHT. ON THE FORECAST TRACK...THE CENTER OF
SANDY WILL MOVE OVER THE COAST OF THE MID-ATLANTIC STATES THIS
EVENING OR TONIGHT.

REPORTS FROM AN AIR FORCE HURRICANE HUNTER AIRCRAFT INDICATE THAT
THE MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS HAVE INCREASED TO NEAR 85 MPH...140
KM/H...WITH HIGHER GUSTS. SANDY IS EXPECTED TO TRANSITION INTO A
FRONTAL OR WINTERTIME LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM PRIOR TO LANDFALL.
HOWEVER...THIS TRANSITION WILL NOT BE ACCOMPANIED BY A WEAKENING OF
THE SYSTEM...AND IN FACT...A LITTLE STRENGTHENING IS POSSIBLE
DURING THIS PROCESS. SANDY IS EXPECTED TO WEAKEN AFTER MOVING
INLAND.

HURRICANE FORCE WINDS EXTEND OUTWARD UP TO 175 MILES...280 KM...FROM
THE CENTER...AND TROPICAL STORM FORCE WINDS EXTEND OUTWARD UP TO 485
MILES...780 KM. NOAA DATA BUOY 41001 LOCATED EAST OF CAPE HATTERAS
REPORTED SUSTAINED WINDS OF 64 MPH WITH A GUST OF 85 MPH. A
WEATHERFLOW STATION IN THIRD ISLAND VIRGINIA REPORTED SUSTAINED
WINDS OF 51 MPH WITH A GUST OF 59 MPH. A WEATHERFLOW STATION IN
LEWES DELAWARE REPORTED SUSTAINED WINDS OF 43 MPH WITH A GUST OF 49
MPH.

THE MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE ESTIMATED FROM HURRICANE HUNTER
AIRCRAFT DATA IS 946 MB...27.94 INCHES.


HAZARDS AFFECTING LAND
----------------------
WIND...TROPICAL STORM CONDITIONS...OR GALE FORCE WINDS...ARE ALREADY
OCCURRING OVER PORTIONS OF THE MID-ATLANTIC STATES FROM NORTH
CAROLINA NORTHWARD TO LONG ISLAND.

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by zeehag

the bounty WAS NOT IN THE HURRICANE.
READ THE BOUNTY'S PAGES AND SEE WHAT THEY WERE DOING.
is all written plainand simple in english able to be understood by all who read.
all were in lifeboat. 2 were swept out of lifeboat.
winds only 40 kts--NOT HURRICANE WINDS, are they???
seas 13 ft--SANDY HAD 38 FT SEAS . look at the paths on bountys pages--THEY WERE NOT IN THE HURRICANE.

News videos I have seen of family and rescurers say three people never made it to the rafts. In the water, One rescued alive, first one plucked out. One deceased, one still missing.

Reguardless of semantics of wind speed, wave height, barametric pressure, full moons, bio rhythms of all the crew, what we have here, like the famous Paul Newman says in the old movie, is a failure to communicate. The captain chose to follow an opening schedule in Florida, and to do that, he had to sail south along the coast. Had he headed North, he would have missed his appointment for the opening date.

Falure to recognize the nature of the storm he was sailing straight into.

Look up and down the East Coast, if that blow was not a hurricane 100% of the time it was pounding away, killing hundreds, and crippling millions of people's lives and property, I bet we could find people up and down the coast to feel it was.

[zeehag]

i havebeen in enough. i know what they pack and how they deliver it. i also know tht when a path is OUTSIDE a hurricane zone--way outside o fit, there will still b eseas, HOWEVER, the bounty was no tin seas, were they?? they wer ein 13 ft seas, per uscg. they were in 40 mph winds , per uscg. those are NOT hurricane parameters, are they??!! a these were published and i didnt understand the discrepancy, i LOOKED UP THE PATH on bounty's site and found awesome incredible wonderment-- they were not in or near the hurricane nor were they in danger of being so. west side and out of it. been in gom in hurricane. was on west side of it--not a bad place to be. but we were inside cone --they were not.
i have been watching and studying weather--how to read it, how to understand it, and how to sail in it, all my life. i am old. i am not a stupid person, and i am very interested in many things, and i know about those things.
i have lived in cyclonic COLD storms for over 20 years in kali every winter. i know how cyclonic storms work and how they travel and how they ..guess what-there is suchuvathang as hurricanes in pacific ocean in mexico--did you know that????
..... my knowledge is not the point. nor is yours.
the fact is they were NOT IN THE HURRICANE NOR NEAR THE CONE AT ANY TIME IN THEIR TRIP--look it up. is posted and on their sites easy to read and plain as daylight in tropix. (presuming, of course, that one knows how to read these tracks. is quite simple.)

[Captain Jeffry]

In the end, it seems to me, that if I leave a harbor and put to sea and if it's in the direction of any major weather system, and I make it.. good on me! If I don't...not so much. just sayin'...

[LEOCAT66]

I have been sailing for the past 50 or so years. I have read many accounts of ships and yachts which have successfully sailed through much worse conditions than the Bounty encountered. I have not experienced anything approaching these conditions.

After reading everything which is available at this time I have concluded that I am certainly not qualified to judge the Captain of the Bounty's decision to leave port in the expected conditions. Knowing what is obvious, I feel that he was acting in a manner consistent with his abilities and the abilities of his ship. He had sailed her for 19 yrs., through similar conditions, all over the world, and knew what to expect from her. I would have sailed with him on that day, as he had proven himself, and his ship, over time. I do not feel that Sandy was, as has been pointed out by Zeehag, the cause of this tragedy, as the Bounty was well away from the hurricane conditions and was in the proper location, at the time of the loss, to weather the blow successfully.

Many capable offshore yachts could and have passed successfully through the similar course, under the same conditions without mishap. Something else seems to be in play here. Many have suggested planking issues as the most likely, and water ingress too immense to overcome. Hopefully at some point we will learn more.

[xymotic]

BTW, this photo is at peak 'intensity' on Oct 25th. The day that Bounty departed towards Florida.

The captain had to think it was going to arc inland and die out, but I can say with absolute certainty that looking at that photo I'm not sure where that thing is going, and which part of the entire southern Atlantic is 'safe' or not.

Yes, I'm being an armchair captain, but there's no freaking way I would have gone out to sea anywhere remotely towards that thing.

[Captain Jeffry]

Originally Posted by zeehag

i havebeen in enough. i know what they pack and how they deliver it. i also know tht when a path is OUTSIDE a hurricane zone--way outside o fit, there will still b eseas, HOWEVER, the bounty was no tin seas, were they?? they wer ein 13 ft seas, per uscg. they were in 40 mph winds , per uscg. those are NOT hurricane parameters, are they??!! a these were published and i didnt understand the discrepancy, i LOOKED UP THE PATH on bounty's site and found awesome incredible wonderment-- they were not in or near the hurricane nor were they in danger of being so. west side and out of it. been in gom in hurricane. was on west side of it--not a bad place to be. but we were inside cone --they were not.
i have been watching and studying weather--how to read it, how to understand it, and how to sail in it, all my life. i am old. i am not a stupid person, and i am very interested in many things, and i know about those things.
i have lived in cyclonic COLD storms for over 20 years in kali every winter. i know how cyclonic storms work and how they travel and how they ..guess what-there is suchuvathang as hurricanes in pacific ocean in mexico--did you know that????
..... my knowledge is not the point. nor is yours.
the fact is they were NOT IN THE HURRICANE NOR NEAR THE CONE AT ANY TIME IN THEIR TRIP--look it up. is posted and on their sites easy to read and plain as daylight in tropix. (presuming, of course, that one knows how to read these tracks. is quite simple.)

Zee,I know you were following the system closely as we spoke on the 26th about Sandy and the front in another thread. Would you go out to sea knowing what you knew??