Cheoy Lee Lost Off NC

[osirissail]

>>> PeterFlynn - I'm glad to see the discussion on bronze vs Marelon through hulls. I found out today that the boat we wish to buy has Marelon through hulls. I will be very interested in the comments regarding these fittings.<<<

Marelon is not "plastic" - it is a composite of resin and re-enforcing fibers in a way like the basic hull layup of all FRG boats. Here is a link to the manufacturers page: Forespar: About Marelon Plumbing

From that page, here is an extract of the Marelon versus Bronze
Marelon® Comparision Chart MARELON® BRONZE
U.V. Degradation 10 10
Corrosion Resistance 10 4
Abrasion Resistance 10 10
Tensil Strength** 10(27000psi) 10(35000psi)
Flexural Modulus*** 10(1300000mPa)) 10(15000000mPa)
ABYC* (Reg.) 10 10
U.L.* (Reg.) 10 10
Total Score 70 64
* MINIMUM PHYSICAL PROPERTIES REQUIRED FOR APPROVAL ARE: Tensil strength 10,900psi 75mPa. Flexural modulus 500,000psi 3480mPa
** Value by test to ASTM D638 (American Society of Testing & Materials) Marelon is a registered trademark of Forespar Products Corporation.
***Value ny test to ASTM D790 (American Society of Testing & Mate

The only difference between the two is the corrosion resistance. With bonded bronze throughhulls/seacocks there is a problem with the tin leaching out of the bronze. This turns the bronze "pink" and is a precursor to thru-hull failure. Inadequate movement exercise and lack of lubrication will make the Seacock "freeze" up and be near to impossible to close.

Un-bonded bronze through hulls have more of a problem with leeching tin but do provide protection against lightning strike over-heating of the metal through hull and it's "falling out" of the hull. So it seems to be 6 to 1, half dozen to the other between bonding and not bonding.

Marelon being a composite material is inert to any leeching problems. But if not exercised and lubricated can also "freeze up" and be very difficult to close. There is a very easy fix to that and it is inherent in the construction of the Marelon Valve which is made in 2 parts with a ball (valve) in between. The two parts screw together to capture the ball (valve) so un-screwing the two parts of the main body a slight amount relieves the pressure on the ball part and you can then rotate it. You also can set the tension or stiffness of the ball (valve) by tightening or loosening the 2 parts of the body.

The "through-hull" is the piece of "pipe" that actually passes through the hull of the boat. This part is screwed into the "Seacock" which is the shut-off valve. Ideally seacocks should be "flanged" and bolted/screwed to the inside of the hull. Then the only stress on the through-hull piece is tension of how tight you screw it into the flanged seacock. Failure of the through-hull with a flanged mounted seacock will probably never be noticed as the seacock is securely attached to the hull. Unfortunately many boats use ordinary plumbing ball valves or gate valves for seacocks and these are very prone to being broken by accidental side loads - like somebody stepping on them or something falling on them. Flanged seacocks attached to the hull eliminates this problem.

Through-hulls come in two major styles - one has an exterior "lip" like a nail's head that is raised away from the surface of the boats hull. The other major style is "flush/flat" head which is counter-sunk into the hull and does not offer any "raised" lip (much like a flat head screw). That raised exterior part is the weak part of a Marelon through-hull. If the boat "scrapes" along an underwater obstacle, the raised head can be sheared (chiseled) off the boat by the obstacle. Bronze is stronger in those cases. The fix for Marelon is easy - use the counter-sunk flat head version of the through-hull.

The major production sailboats switched many years ago to Marelon through-hulls to eliminate the "tin" problem, the bonding problem, and extra costs of installing bronze. Considering liability and warranty concerns, their switching to Marelon translates to a lot of confidence in the Marelon product.

[Ocean Girl]

Marc, the plugs can come in a variety pack. You are correct not to rely on a clerk on such an important issue. What kind of boat do you have? Usually through hulls are standard sizes, so if ya post what kind of boat you have, a sister ship to your vessel may be following this thread and give you some info.
Cheers,
Erika

[GordMay]

Has anyone seen/used the "TruPlug", a tapered circular cone shaped plug, made of a proprietary foam?
It’s compressed by hand, and inserted into the hole stopping, or reducing the inward flow of water as the foam returns to its original shape.

TruPlug (division of Artelier Studio Llc) ➥ TruPlug - Emergency Marine Leak Mitigation

Forespar ➥ TruPlug Emergency Plugs by Forespar

[Captain Bill]

Gord, these plugs look quite interesting. I needed to plug a hose while servicing a pump so I used one of my wooden plugs. An amazing amout of water came right through the plug. The plugs are cut with the grain of the wood and thousands of tiny channels allow water to flow right through the plug. While certainly better than a wide open hole they will not stop the flow completely. I was thinking of soaking the plugs in liquid parafin wax, but these plugs made of foam may be a better solution.

[xxuxx]

Originally Posted by GordMay
Courtesy is based on respect for other people's feelings. One of the worst abuses of courtesy is the tendency to make honesty an excuse for rudeness, by those who look upon tact as hypocritical.
Straightforward honesty is a virtue, true; but as “Miss Manners” says, it does not trump all others. It does not justify unkindness and rudeness.


This is why I love GordMay. Always "spot on", not only in hardware solutions, but in solutions of the Soul.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

... I needed to plug a hose while servicing a pump so I used one of my wooden plugs. An amazing amout of water came right through the plug. The plugs are cut with the grain of the wood and thousands of tiny channels allow water to flow right through the plug. While certainly better than a wide open hole they will not stop the flow completely...

Use a “barbed plug insert” to temporarily plug hoses during maintenance. Add a hose clamp for more long-term, but not permanent, use.

➥ Threaded Plugs - Barb Plugs

➥ www.Hoseplugs.com

Soft wood cones are only intended to mitigate the inflow of water, through a damaged through-hull; allowing the bilge pump(s) to keep up, whilst a more robust repair (from outside the hull) is effected.

[SV Demeter]

osirissail mentions
"Marelon being a composite material is inert to any leeching problems. But if not exercised and lubricated can also "freeze up" and be very difficult to close. There is a very easy fix to that and it is inherent in the construction of the Marelon Valve which is made in 2 parts with a ball (valve) in between. The two parts screw together to capture the ball (valve) so un-screwing the two parts of the main body a slight amount relieves the pressure on the ball part and you can then rotate it. You also can set the tension or stiffness of the ball (valve) by tightening or loosening the 2 parts of the body."


Can anyone comment on what osirissail is saying? I cant find anything on Forspars site (www.forespar.com) about unscrewing these things. FWIW I lube mine annually with teflon winch grease per Forespars reccomendations.

So its seems pretty clear to me anyway that the way to go is with flanged Seacocks and flush mounted through hull fittings and to services them regularly. Sounds like marelon may have a slight advantage in terms of corrosion resistance, but both bronze and marlon seem pretty strong.


How about the chainplate failure? Can anyone comment on what happened there? How old was the standing rigging? What sort of life had this boat seen? Load cycling of a rig on a boat sitting in a calm anchorage or slip vs. one in a rolly mooring field over years affect the life span of rigging also salty west indies vs semi-fresh chesapeake bay. Had the chainplates ever been inspected? Was it in fact the chainplate itself that failed due to corrosion or stress or was it the hull or substrate the chainplate was fastened to that failed die to rot or delamination?

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Has anyone seen/used the "TruPlug", a tapered circular cone shaped plug, made of a proprietary foam?
It’s compressed by hand, and inserted into the hole stopping, or reducing the inward flow of water as the foam returns to its original shape.

TruPlug (division of Artelier Studio Llc) ➥ TruPlug - Emergency Marine Leak Mitigation

Forespar ➥ TruPlug Emergency Plugs by Forespar

Gord,

Something else I once heard from some "old salt" (can't remember who) was to use toilet wax seals. You know, the round doughnut thing under the John?

It sounded right to me. The wax is malleable and yet pretty stiff.

Has anyone had some experience with these?

I have started a "Damage Control" locker under my Starboard setee. All my "Oh sh#t" stuff is in there including a big ass spare electric pump with 15 feet of discharge hose and battery clamps.

[James S]

Escape Plan
When I pulled off my 30year old chain plates, a third of the bolts were broken inside...and judging from the corrosion, had been broken for some time.
I did this just after the boat completed a 14,000nm trip with $25,000 worth of new rig. You know we were lucky not to have lost it.
Many chain plates are damn hard to remove and so it doesn’t get done.
Mine were under the wooden rub rails and the nuts behind interior finishes that had to be destroyed to get to them.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Gord,

Something else I once heard from some "old salt" (can't remember who) was to use toilet wax seals. You know, the round doughnut thing under the John?

It sounded right to me. The wax is malleable and yet pretty stiff.

Has anyone had some experience with these?

I have started a "Damage Control" locker under my Starboard setee. All my "Oh sh#t" stuff is in there including a big ass spare electric pump with 15 feet of discharge hose and battery clamps.

A toilet wax ring or ductseal might be used to temporarily seal a crack very near the waterline; preferably from the "wet" side.
Neither has the adhesion to resist a higher pressure stream.

[osirissail]

Can anyone comment on what osirissail is saying? I cant find anything on Forspars site (www.forespar.com) about unscrewing these things. FWIW I lube mine annually with teflon winch grease per Forespars reccomendations.
[/QUOTE]

One of the real values in these forums is the gaining of "local knowledge" about marine things . . . Being in the boat parts business and boat repair/building business you learn little "things/tricks" about how to do stuff more efficiently. Installing many Forespar seacocks you find out that separating the "flange base" from the rest of the seacock makes the installation quicker and easier. If you look closely at the Marelon seacocks you will see the separation line between the two body parts. Rotating the two parts will either tighten the pressure on the moveable ball in the valve or loosen that pressure. It only takes an little rotatiion to loosen the pressure. Continuing to loosen with result in the two body parts separating completely. Then we use the flange half to mark and mount on the hull. After mounting them we re-assemble the seacock and install the hose fitting and hoses. After a year or two or three or four . . . the seacock will "stick" and you will probably break off the handle trying to open or close the seacock. With a large wrench/pipe wrench/spanner you can rotate the hose end of the seacock just a little and take the pressure off the ball even with all the hoses still attached. Then you can move the valve without breaking the handle.
- - The same technique works on bronze sea cocks that have the cone valve. They normally have either a retaining bolt/nut on the "bottom" end of the cone that adjusts the tightness of the valve; or a retaining ring on the cone just under the handle. Loosening these will take pressure off the cone and with a little careful tapping with a hammer "free up" the cone so it can rotate.
- - The CP thread containing the discussion about the new Forespar "soft plugs" would suggest that they could be used to "plug the thru-hull" from outside and then allow dis-assembly of the seacock for thorough cleaning and lubrication while the boat is still in the water.

[sailvayu]

Here are some photos of a Choy lee That lost it's rig a couple of months ago off Wrightsville beach NC in good conditions. Seas 2-3, wind 10-15 Chain plates showed no signs of corrosion from inside or out
When the boat got back

The chainplate



I think I am going to pull mine this winter to see what they really look like

This boat had the port upper chain plate fail just below the deck

[btrayfors]

I have a 1981 Cheoy Lee "Golden Wave 42", designed by Bob Perry. Kept her in Tortola and sailed her hard for 11 years.

Eleven years ago this month I replaced all the standing rigging. Original was Navtec rod rigging. Experienced failure of one rigging screw on the cap shroud a year earlier and, after replacing that complete shroud and hardware in St. Thomas and thinking about it for a year, decided to replace all standing rigging.

Also, pulled all chainplates and tested them. Several of the 1/2" s/s bolts securing the chainplates broke while removing them. Obvious crevice corrosion at the breaks.

The chainplates looked pretty good, but failed in the testing (done by a master English machinist in Tortola). Had new ones made, got new and proper s/s bolts, and replaced all the chainplates, including the stempiece and sternpiece fittings.

Rigged with 10mm British Steel (stainless) by a master rigger (Isaac Fonseca).

The chainplates were hard to get to...had to remove some of the interior teak cabinetry. Very glad I did.

MORAL: DON'T NEGLECT YOUR CHAINPLATES, Cheoy Lee or not.

Bill

[Chief Engineer]

Or are they earplugs for squinty ears?

Originally Posted by GordMay

Has anyone seen/used the "TruPlug", a tapered circular cone shaped plug, made of a proprietary foam?
It’s compressed by hand, and inserted into the hole stopping, or reducing the inward flow of water as the foam returns to its original shape.

TruPlug (division of Artelier Studio Llc) ➥ TruPlug - Emergency Marine Leak Mitigation

Forespar ➥ TruPlug Emergency Plugs by Forespar

[nowbythebay]

YouTube - Lazy Jack Video running free.MPG

Thanks for your suport here... still hoping for insurance...3 months and still waiting