Pulling The Engine On A Center Cockpit

[lifeofreilly57]

I have a Perkins 4-108 in my Cheoy Lee 47 Pedrick Center Cockpit, I currently have it here on my property for a refit, the first order of business is to pull the motor. I have it pretty much disconnected everything and am pulling all the heavy parts off, like the jacketed exhaust, alternator, refrigeration pump, etc, etc.
I have a couple ideas on how to get it out of the engine compartment but am looking to see if anyone here has done something similar and has a better idea. I was once a millwright/rigger in a past life a long, long time ago so I've moved heavy objects before but the space is limited.
Any ideas or tricks you've seen would be appreciated, anything that makes it easier. Once out of the engine compartment I can get it out of the hatch, but getting it out will be a little bit of work.
ANy suggestions?

[skipmac]

My last center cockpit boat had a removable cockpit floor. I pulled that engine out by lifting straight up.

Current center cockpit boat doesn't have that option but the PO told me he was approached by a former Pearson manager (after the company quit making boats) who offered to repower by cutting the cockpit floor, pulling the engine, then reglassing the floor.

Plan B, strip the engine, pull the galley apart, build a ramp from the engine into the galley, slide engine forward then lift engine through the companionway while smashing and gouging the interior of the boat the whole way.

[Typhoon]

I have a new yanmar in my Bristol 45.5 . It's a center cockpit . What they did was build many different braces on the floor and slowly moved the engine whole through the interior and out the companion way . If I had to do it I may consider cutting the cockpit floor . I personally installed my generator but that's sits in front of the main engine and was an almost dead drop through the companionway .

Good luck , sounds like a fun project .

Regards John Tully

[UNCIVILIZED]

Removing the cockpit floor via cutting is often the best option. Especially when you consider that most sailboats are literally built around the engine. And that zipping out said floor may give you much, much better acces to the engine & it's beds & systems, for engine reinstallation & tuning. But hold off on glassing the cockpit back in place until you're certain that the engine runs well when installed in the boat, post rebuild.
To me, spending 50hrs rebuilding the cockpit myself makes more sense than getting billed for an extra 100hrs by the mechanic due to poor engine access slowing down his working on things.

[SecondBase]

If you cut the cockpit floor, during the reinstall possibly set it as a hatch. I've enjoyed the engine access that setup provides. My hull was designed that way - RIP Jack Giles.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Removing the cockpit floor via cutting is often the best option. Especially when you consider that most sailboats are literally built around the engine. And that zipping out said floor may give you much, much better acces to the engine & it's beds & systems, for engine reinstallation & tuning. But hold off on glassing the cockpit back in place until you're certain that the engine runs well when installed in the boat, post rebuild.
To me, spending 50hrs rebuilding the cockpit myself makes more sense than getting billed for an extra 100hrs by the mechanic due to poor engine access slowing down his working on things.

Another suggestion, if cutting the cockpit floor out for the swap, instead of glassing the cockpit permanently back together, bed and bolt (or make latches) the cutout back in to allow removal again in the future. Hopefully not for removal of the engine again but if you're doing some major maintenance having an open engine room sure is nice.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by SecondBase

If you cut the cockpit floor, during the reinstall possibly set it as a hatch. I've enjoyed the engine access that setup provides. My hull was designed that way - RIP Jack Giles.

Oops. You beat me to this suggestion. I loved that on my last boat. Doing even routing maintenance like oil change or new impellors was so much more pleasant with the ability to stand up, open sky and sunlight, fresh air and not trapped in a hot, enclosed engine room.

One suggestion, don't forget you have the hatch open if you leave the job for a while for parts or something. The sudden drop when you step into the cockpit can be surprising if not downright unpleasant.

[LoudMusic]

You could probably even make the cockpit floor hatch appear from above as if nothing significant had changed, and all the securing bolts / latches are operated from underneath in the engine room.

It could also be designed in such a way that the lip that the floor sits on is a drain gutter (it would HAVE to be designed this way) and that would allow water in the cockpit floor to drain at all edges causing it to dry out quicker, rather than pooling on the floor waiting to drain into a couple corners.

[robert sailor]

Yikes, I would not want to be cutting out the floor of the cockpit just to pull the engine, me thinks the designer came up a little short on these designs.
On our Moody I removed lots of the heavy stuff from the engine and placed a support under a plywood mini ramp under the stairway. Installed a come a long on to the boom that had an additional halyard placed in the same area as the come a ,on strapping for more support and slowly ratcheting the engine up a little I was able to push it out on the ramp. I then had to lift it by the front of the engine to clear the main hatch (put heavy cardboard around any wood that needs protecting) once clear of the hatch the boom was swung over the side and the old engine was dropped into a small skiff along side. When installing the new engine I had it done by professionals and at dockside using a crane.

[LoudMusic]

I've wondered about the negative effects of using a sail boom as a crane boom. I think you'd want to remove any vang pressure (up or down) and as you've done, supply a topping lift via halyard directly at the point of down pressure. But even halyards aren't designed for immense pressure - they're designed for lifting a sail. The line could snap, or the masthead sheave could fail, and then you're dropping an engine. Yikes! It's also putting an excessive amount of pressure on the forestay, which has several potential points of failure as well.

All that said, yeah I'd probably do the same thing

[bravenewworld]

Maybe odd but relatively painless, I watched a crew of mechanics slide the engine forward on a small section beam held up with "A" braces with a chain cradle and dolly wheels on the top f the beam (the beam extended to a second "A" brace at the aft end of the engine compartment), then lifted straight up through the companion way sans tranny and all the wiring and flex pipe. As I recall, they had to hold the block at an angle to get through the companion way but the whole effort only took an hour. I assume the "A" braces were sitting on wood footers to spread the load on the sole. I've never seen anything similar here in the U.S.?

[UNCIVILIZED]

The idea of building a hatch overtop of the engine sounds nice (in theory). But the reality is that it's just shy of impossible to build one that won't leak at times. Especially if you regularly get much water in the cockpit. Meaning more than a light rain. Which, these kinds of leaks greatly accelerate the corrosion & aging of the engine. And that can lead to needing to use said hatch for more frequent maintenance, or replacement.

I'm sure everyone's felt the cockpit sole flex under foot when moving around. And that kind of regular flexing is really, really hard for hatch seals to cope with. If you can build the cockpit floor, hatch, & hatch frame such that it doesn't flex, then you might have a shot at keeping things well sealed. But use plenty of closely spaced bolts, & a perpetually soft gasket to seal it when it's not in use.

Edit: Keep in mind too, than unlike decks, much of the cockpit tends to be uncored, & thus way more flexible. Including the sides of the footwell, from whence some of the stiffness (or flexibiity) comes from.

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Yikes, I would not want to be cutting out the floor of the cockpit just to pull the engine, me thinks the designer came up a little short on these designs.

As I said before, it's quite common to build the boat around the engine. Since in probably the majority of boats, the engine is fully installed prior to putting the deck onto the boat. So that if half of the engine, & the entire transmission are under the cockpit...
And if one's good at glass work, this isn't a complex job. Matching the paint or gelcoat, & applying it is probably the more difficult part of such an undertaking.

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

I've wondered about the negative effects of using a sail boom as a crane boom. I think you'd want to remove any vang pressure (up or down) and as you've done, supply a topping lift via halyard directly at the point of down pressure. But even halyards aren't designed for immense pressure - they're designed for lifting a sail. The line could snap, or the masthead sheave could fail, and then you're dropping an engine. Yikes! It's also putting an excessive amount of pressure on the forestay, which has several potential points of failure as well.

All that said, yeah I'd probably do the same thing

Think about this one for a moment. If your halyard is 10mm Warpspeed, then it's breaking strength is 5T. And 12mm Dacron double braid is 4T+. So lifting an engine won't be a tough job for it, especially if the engine weighs but 500lbs. You put more load on a halyard than that via normal sailing loads.
The same, or similar loads are seen by the vang & main sheet at times under sail. So...

And to be honest, I can't recall having ever had or even heard of a sheave failing in fully a lifetime of sailing. Though you shouldn't let them get aged this much by UV if they're plastic, anyway. And you surely won't break a metal one.
It's called preventative maintenance for a reason.

[lifeofreilly57]

Originally Posted by bravenewworld

Maybe odd but relatively painless, I watched a crew of mechanics slide the engine forward on a small section beam held up with "A" braces with a chain cradle and dolly wheels on the top f the beam (the beam extended to a second "A" brace at the aft end of the engine compartment), then lifted straight up through the companion way sans tranny and all the wiring and flex pipe. As I recall, they had to hold the block at an angle to get through the companion way but the whole effort only took an hour. I assume the "A" braces were sitting on wood footers to spread the load on the sole. I've never seen anything similar here in the U.S.?

So far this is the most practical suggestion for my particular situation. Although cutting the floor out of the cockpit is a good suggestion the cockpit in this CC is not that big, cutting out a hatch large enough to pull the motor directly would mean having to remove the steering gear every time you want to pull the hatch, I'm kind of restricted in that way.
In my foggy, distant past I pulled machinery from existing manufacturing facilities by having holes cut in the roof and lifting it with a crane (used to have a hoisting licence) but there were instances where that wasn't possible and a method similar to this was required. We're talking 10,000lbs to 20,000lbs in those cases, not the 400lbs the stripped down 4-108 weighs.
When I saw this solution it jogged a few lost synapses in my foggy brain, it has some ideas I can use in this case but I still need to add a few more details to make it work.
Any additional ideas in this vein would be appreciated.
My engine compartment has relatively decent if not great access, except to the generator, which is mounted behind the engine on a shelf, guess I'll be pulling that out for service/inspection at the same time.
One thing I didn't mention is that the boat is currently on the hard with the mast removed, fortunately I have a backhoe with enough reach to pull the motor out through the hatch, once I can get it out of the engine compartment.
thanks for all the feedback so far, I really wish I could cut a hatch into the cockpit, it would be handy in other ways. I'm surprised at the number of modern CC boats that don't have that feature while having huge cockpits that would easily afford the realestate.

[michaelratinter]

My center cockpit has a transparent lexan sole which is removable and provides lots of light to the engine room.

[lifeofreilly57]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

As I said before, it's quite common to build the boat around the engine. Since in probably the majority of boats, the engine is fully installed prior to putting the deck onto the boat. So that if half of the engine, & the entire transmission are under the cockpit...
And if one's good at glass work, this isn't a complex job. Matching the paint or gelcoat, & applying it is probably the more difficult part of such an undertaking.



Think about this one for a moment. If your halyard is 10mm Warpspeed, then it's breaking strength is 5T. And 12mm Dacron double braid is 4T+. So lifting an engine won't be a tough job for it, especially if the engine weighs but 500lbs. You put more load on a halyard than that via normal sailing loads.
The same, or similar loads are seen by the vang & main sheet at times under sail. So...

And to be honest, I can't recall having ever had or even heard of a sheave failing, in fully a lifetime of sailing. Though you shouldn't let them get aged this much by UV if they're plastic, anyway. And you surely won't break a metal one.
It's called preventative maintenance for a reason.

I have to agree, I've pulled the engines out of two other boats this way while on the hard, by using the boom to lift, then swing the motor over the side, both were on the hard at the time. Stripping the heavy parts off first doesn't hurt, but the loads put on the rig of most boats over 38' by the sails is higher than the 400lbs of a basic short block.
I do agree that you should run a halyard to the point in the boom where your placing the load, just in case. Cant be too careful when lifting heavy objects.