Rudder Chip repair

[eliandjen]

I have a small chip, looks like a scrape really, maybe about 4 inches long on the tail edge of our rudder. Is this something that is easily repaired? Not really sure if this is a huge deal or not. I assume these are built in two halves and sandwiched together, not sure if there is a core or what. My concern is water intrusion I guess. It's an IP35, I believe it's constructed out of fiberglass? Also, it might be helpful to know our purpose is the Bahamas.

Also, I cant find on the (new to us) boat an emergency tiller. The helm appears to be a rack and pinion steering and not a cable type system. Do I really need an emergency tiller? Build one?


Excuse my ignorance, we're new and still learning.

[Suijin]

Fill it and fair it (and the few others visible) with epoxy. They look like superficial scratches/scrapes and should be of little concern.

Yes, it would be prudent to have an emergency tiller. In most boats there is an access hatch located directly above the top of the rudder post, in the cockpit somewhere. The post may have a cross bolt through it. An emergency tiller consisting of an "L" shaped aluminum tube that sleeves over the rudder post is fairly common. The bolt fits into slots cut in the tube to lock the tube to the post and allow it to turn it.

Look in your lockers for the emergency tiller. It might be there and you just did not know what it was as it did not look like a tiller lol.

[eliandjen]

Thanks Sujin,

Do I need a bit of fiberglass or just epoxy? Is there a special marine epoxy?

I've went to the extent of climbing in our lazerette, and totally cleaning it out, even looked on some fiberglass ridges...nothin' lol

The survey specifically says the boat doesn't have one, so I don't know. I just didn't know if a rack and pinion system required one but it sounds like it does.

Oh, and yes our seat is the access hatch, the steering wheel bar runs right under it and I've removed the seat to find the pinion type system.

[Suijin]

For filling, it's a matter of how deep and big the scratch is. If it's less than 1/4" deep I'd certainly just fill it with epoxy.

Epoxy is epoxy, for the most part, but if you can get your hands on some West Systems epoxy (sold at most marine supply stores), you'll know what you're getting. You will want some filler too, to thicken it to the consistency of peanut butter. Filler comes in different hardnesses; get a middle of the road all-purpose filler, like colloidal silica. Harder and it will be difficult to sand and fair, softer and it won't be as durable.

Clean out the gouges well, with sandpaper or a grinder, leaving a rough surface with tooth. Clean with acetone, then fill with the epoxy to just shy of level. Let it kick off and harden. Wash the surface with soap and water (to remove amine blush, which forms on the surface of the kicked epoxy), sand rough, clean, then skim coat the repair again to to slightly proud, and sand it fair when it hardens.

West Systems has a handy booklet that your store may also carry that covers repair techniques and working with their products.

You could also use 3M Premium Marine filler, which is easier and faster to work with than epoxy, if the gouges are fairly shallow, but it does not have near the strength of epoxy and is not as waterproof and should be overcoated with barrier coat.

Yes, you should have an emergency tiller because rack and pinion is more difficult to McGuyver than chain and cable. Break a gear and you're hosed. If you can locate the top of the post you could have an emergency tiller fabricated by the local metal guy for a reasonable fee. Just a bent aluminum tube with slots cut in it. It does not have to be pretty, it just needs to get you home.

Google "emergency tiller", hit images, and you'll see all sorts of solutions, from fancy to home made.

You'll want to look at the geometry of your cockpit and the post as well. For example on my boat, to use the emergency tiller I need to remove the wheel from the helm station to give the tiller room to swing. On some boats the arm may need to be reversed to give it room and adequate leverage.

[eliandjen]

Originally Posted by Suijin

For filling, it's a matter of how deep and big the scratch is. If it's less than 1/4" deep I'd certainly just fill it with epoxy.

Epoxy is epoxy, for the most part, but if you can get your hands on some West Systems epoxy (sold at most marine supply stores), you'll know what you're getting. You will want some filler too, to thicken it to the consistency of peanut butter. Filler comes in different hardnesses; get a middle of the road all-purpose filler, like colloidal silica. Harder and it will be difficult to sand and fair, softer and it won't be as durable.

Clean out the gouges well, with sandpaper or a grinder, leaving a rough surface with tooth. Clean with acetone, then fill with the epoxy to just shy of level. Let it kick off and harden. Wash the surface with soap and water (to remove amine blush, which forms on the surface of the kicked epoxy), sand rough, clean, then skim coat the repair again to to slightly proud, and sand it fair when it hardens.

West Systems has a handy booklet that your store may also carry that covers repair techniques and working with their products.

You could also use 3M Premium Marine filler, which is easier and faster to work with than epoxy, if the gouges are fairly shallow, but it does not have near the strength of epoxy and is not as waterproof and should be overcoated with barrier coat.

Yes, you should have an emergency tiller because rack and pinion is more difficult to McGuyver than chain and cable. Break a gear and you're hosed. If you can locate the top of the post you could have an emergency tiller fabricated by the local metal guy for a reasonable fee. Just a bent aluminum tube with slots cut in it. It does not have to be pretty, it just needs to get you home.

Google "emergency tiller", hit images, and you'll see all sorts of solutions, from fancy to home made.

You'll want to look at the geometry of your cockpit and the post as well. For example on my boat, to use the emergency tiller I need to remove the wheel from the helm station to give the tiller room to swing. On some boats the arm may need to be reversed to give it room and adequate leverage.

Amazing reply! Thanks!

[Jim Cate]

Most emergency tillers are more jokes than useful. The aluminium tube with a slot idea sounds pretty much on the joke end of the spectrum to me. In your place, the first thing I'd do is get in touch with the builders and the owner's group. This problem has likely been solved many times already... no need to solve it yet again.

And once you have your tiller, try it out in anger... that is, at sea and in at least moderately stiff conditions, and see if you can actually steer the boat.

Jim

[Drew13440]

There is a product called Marine Tex sold at any chandlery that will work here. It's a small package of epoxy and filler compound that Suijin referenced, pre-measured and easy to use, instructions included. Good luck.

[thinwater]

See that hole at the top of the rudder?

I bet lunch that is for emergency steering and is the reason there is no emergency tiller. Just reeve a rope with stopper knots on both sides and route them to winches. With bearings top and bottom, that's a strong rudder.

What most people need to consider is how to steer when the rudder shaft gets bent a few degrees and the rudder jams. A drogue and bridle is the answer then.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by thinwater

See that hole at the top of the rudder?

I bet lunch that is for emergency steering and is the reason there is no emergency tiller. Just reeve a rope with stopper knots on both sides and route them to winches. With bearings top and bottom, that's a strong rudder.

What most people need to consider is how to steer when the rudder shaft gets bent a few degrees and the rudder jams. A drogue and bridle is the answer then.

Good catch, thinwater. I agree that your solution is likely the best one, because it will also allow control of the rudder should the internal framework part from the shaft (as has sometimes happened) which means that an emergency tiller will not work at all, no matter how well designed it is!

Jim

[eliandjen]

Originally Posted by thinwater

See that hole at the top of the rudder?

I bet lunch that is for emergency steering and is the reason there is no emergency tiller. Just reeve a rope with stopper knots on both sides and route them to winches. With bearings top and bottom, that's a strong rudder.

What most people need to consider is how to steer when the rudder shaft gets bent a few degrees and the rudder jams. A drogue and bridle is the answer then.

Interestingly enough someone on the IP owners group said the same thing, good catch. I didn't even stop to think what that hole was there for but that makes sense.

I'm off to look up drogue and bridle steering how to's now.. sooo much to learn!

[a64pilot]

IP’s to my knowledge do not have an emergency tiller, and again to my knowledge no one has ever broken that rack and pinion system either.
Urban Legend has the hole in the top of the rudder being for emergency steering. Legend has it that someone actually shot a hole in their rudder and did the rope trick, the factory heard about it and adopted the idea.
I have no idea of any truth to that.
IP didn’t build the rudder I don’t think, like most manufacturers, I believe they bought it from Foss Foam?

If you start feeling a shudder through the steering nearing hull speed under sail, there is a shim kit that will stop it, it’s not hard to install and goes into the lobster strap at the bottom of the rudder.

Unusually for a full keel Boat, your rudder is a Spade rudder, just a bit of trivia, but it’s why we can get away with that tiny steering wheel.

I have a Gale Rider drogue, one reason is Emergency steering. I have not tried it, but it reportedly works well, the trick is the lines must be run through the mid ship cleats and then back to the sheet winches, if you don’t run them through the midship cleats, the drogue won’t steer the Boat worth a darn. In order to turn the Boat, it has to be pulled from midship, pulling the stern just won’t do it.

[Frankly]

Don't think IP supplied an emergency tiller with the rack and pinion steering era ships. Also don't think you need one and don't know how you would fit one. Have never tried the rudder hole with line and winches but looks like it might work.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by eliandjen

I'm off to look up drogue and bridle steering how to's now.. sooo much to learn!

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Frankly

Don't think IP supplied an emergency tiller with the rack and pinion steering era ships. Also don't think you need one and don't know how you would fit one. Have never tried the rudder hole with line and winches but looks like it might work.

Be easy to fit one, just drill a hole in the rudder post, drill and tap for a large bolt, install bolt if needed locked in place with a locknut, use a very large pull handle and socket to steer, or weld on a big nut on top of post.
However I have never heard of a steering failure of a rack and pinion IP, rudder damage would be more likely I would think and that is unlikely, but possible of course.

[Frankly]

If you look under your seat think you will find the wheel shaft is right on top of the rudder shaft cap. I took that assy apart when I installed my autopilot, not something you would enjoy in difficult condiions.