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Old 14-06-2019, 21:29   #1
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Schooner VS Containership

Here is the reason I will always go behind bigger boats, even if it’s out of my way!

Video...


Article...
https://gcaptain.com/historic-german...on-elbe-river/
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Old 14-06-2019, 21:34   #2
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

Unbelievable. Why on earth didn't he just bear away?
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Old 14-06-2019, 23:04   #3
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

Two stupid captains is not a good combination
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Old 14-06-2019, 23:39   #4
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

Two stupid captains, I dunno....was the schooner the stand on vessel? It's under sail presumably, but that big sucker looks pretty likely constrained by a channel if that was a river.

Anycase, I wholeheartedly agree with the above poster.... I always go astern of almost anything, even when I'm 'right'. I'm not a day sailor nor a racer... I don't trust anyone when it comes to my home, so I'm as conservative as they get.
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Old 15-06-2019, 00:11   #5
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

What a sad end for a well respected and loved vessel: dying after a hugely expensive refit and restoration, at the hands of a tourist ride captain. I can only imagine the feelings that Commodore Tompkins must be feeling just now. Justifiable homicide comes to mind!

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Old 15-06-2019, 00:30   #6
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

Not dead.... didn't even settle on the bottom before they got her to the river bank.... pump her out... buy some new soft furnishings and away you go.....
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Old 15-06-2019, 01:00   #7
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

Quote:
Originally Posted by ed91e View Post
Two stupid captains is not a good combination
Only one stupid driver.
The one in the sailboat.
I doubt he/she is a captain anymore, if they ever were.
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Old 15-06-2019, 01:02   #8
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

Both captains are responsible. You can't force a collision just because you have the right of way. That's a small containership, but could be 50,000 tons. A lot to stop or turn. And if the bottom was close, the ships prop and rudder won't work as well as in deep water.


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Old 15-06-2019, 01:58   #9
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

Given the amount of commercial traffic on the Elbe I am rather surprised that anyone is allowed to faff about there under sail at all.... you can't faff about under sail on the Hamble....
Hamburg traffic.. https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/dat...-13,2019-06-15

Or just look at the number of ships that pass in the background in the short time spent making the vid in this article.... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ring-five.html
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Old 15-06-2019, 04:41   #10
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

The order given was apparently "hard to port", but they put the tiller over to port... Elbe 5 is supposed to be refloated this weekend.
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Old 15-06-2019, 05:48   #11
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

An example of willful ignorance / stupidity on behalf of those in charge on the schooner. It appears they knowingly put the crew and passengers in harms way.

I don’t think I would trust them to a job that the phrase “ do you want fries with that” is a regular occurrence.
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Old 15-06-2019, 05:59   #12
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

I have admired this schooner many times. This was very clearly an avoidable accident. You can see on board the schooner that they had seen the container vessel, but tried to press ahead of her, until too late.

The container vessel was indeed hindered by her draft and also pretty much too starboard in the fairway, so she had actually nowhere to go. If you sail on commercial vessels up or down the Elbe to Hamburg, you have to ignore the sailing boats. There are many of them. And they tend to keep out of the way, albeit often very late.

The fault here was clearly with the schooner.

I understand they will restore her, and I really hope they do. Otherwise it would be a great loss.
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Old 15-06-2019, 06:30   #13
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Schooner VS Containership

Quote:
Originally Posted by theway View Post
Here is the reason I will always go behind bigger boats, even if it’s out of my way

That is a good plan, and one that I have also adopted. My reasoning is that they are often moving much faster than you realize and therefore come on you quickly.
Being the stand on vessel is irrelevant. I’ll also call them on the radio and tell them my intentions and ask if they had rather me do something different
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Old 15-06-2019, 07:05   #14
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourner View Post
Two stupid captains, I dunno....was the schooner the stand on vessel? It's under sail presumably, but that big sucker looks pretty likely constrained by a channel if that was a river.

Anycase, I wholeheartedly agree with the above poster.... I always go astern of almost anything, even when I'm 'right'. I'm not a day sailor nor a racer... I don't trust anyone when it comes to my home, so I'm as conservative as they get.


The container ship would have rights over a sailing vessel. No doubt the container ship is more constrained by draft and maneuverability in that situation. Might brings right.
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Old 15-06-2019, 07:07   #15
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Re: Schooner VS Containership

Quote:
Originally Posted by psk125 View Post
The order given was apparently "hard to port", but they put the tiller over to port... Elbe 5 is supposed to be refloated this weekend.

"Hart Backbord" -- indeed. The crew mixed up the command and put the tiller over to port, instead of turning to port. Fatal mistake, as the vessel then luffed up and became road kill.



But the root cause is that the command came far too late. The sickening constant bearing screams out at you from the beginning of the video. The skipper should not have hesitated.


There was some discussion on G Captain about the vessel's having possibly missed stays, but they seem to be making way to me. No reason not to bear away immediately that I can see.

The container ship is also guilty, and there will be hell to pay, but in practice these vessels don't really have much choice but to rely on smaller vessels getting out of their way. By the time the video starts, it was already probably too late for the container ship to avoid the schooner. That part of the Elbe is not all that narrow, but the tide rips at up to 6 or 7 knots, and the channel is twisting, so it's pretty hard to do normal collision avoidance, since it's so hard to know what the smaller vessel will do until it's too late to deal with it yourself.
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