Schooner VS Containership

[psk125]

Threads on other fora mention the containership trying - repeatedly- to raise the schooner on VHF, with no response from the schooner. The investigation will confirm if this was the case.

[jmorrison146]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

"Hart Backbord" -- indeed. The crew mixed up the command and put the tiller over to port, instead of turning to port. Fatal mistake, as the vessel then luffed up and became road kill.



But the root cause is that the command came far too late. The sickening constant bearing screams out at you from the beginning of the video. The skipper should not have hesitated.


There was some discussion on G Captain about the vessel's having possibly missed stays, but they seem to be making way to me. No reason not to bear away immediately that I can see.

The container ship is also guilty, and there will be hell to pay, but in practice these vessels don't really have much choice but to rely on smaller vessels getting out of their way. By the time the video starts, it was already probably too late for the container ship to avoid the schooner. That part of the Elbe is not all that narrow, but the tide rips at up to 6 or 7 knots, and the channel is twisting, so it's pretty hard to do normal collision avoidance, since it's so hard to know what the smaller vessel will do until it's too late to deal with it yourself.

Container ship is also guilty? You're slamming a licensed mariner you know nothing about which drives me crazy. For all we know, he saw the idiocy ahead and was backing down hard. There's only so much he can do.

The entire port of San Diego, a sailing Mecca, is regulated as "do not impede" commercial shipping. If a big guy has to sound a danger signal for you (at you?) you will likely be fined.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmorrison146

Container ship is also guilty? You're slamming a licensed mariner you know nothing about which drives me crazy. For all we know, he saw the idiocy ahead and was backing down hard. There's only so much he can do.

Well, naturally. Even if he was backing down hard, or had the rudder hard over, he will share some of the responsibility for the collision. I have all sympathy for him and it is possible that there was almost nothing he could really do, but he was obligated to do everything possible to avoid the collision and seriously doubt that he will get off without some serious consequences. That's just the way it works.


And it might be worse than that -- that part of the Elbe is pretty deep right up to the banks, so a judge might conclude that he could have come to starboard and avoided the schooner if he'd taken action earlier.

Originally Posted by jmorrison146

The entire port of San Diego, a sailing Mecca, is regulated as "do not impede" commercial shipping. If a big guy has to sound a danger signal for you (at you?) you will likely be fined.

This is a non-sequitur. Of course, what you write is true. But it has nothing to do with the obligation of all vessels to avoid collisions. And if the rule in San Diego is that sailing vessels are not to impede commercial traffic, then commercial shipping will nevertheless be obligated to give way to sail if a risk of collision arises. This is different from the Elbe, where commercial shipping following the channel has actual "right of way".

[El Pinguino]

So, did the master of the Hanne Knutsen or either of the two pilots of the Hanne Knutsen get into strife or suffer 'some serious consequences ' whatsover when Atalanta ran under her bow? No they did not.

The one part of Rule 9 that isn't abrogated by the local German rules is 9(a) ... which states...
'(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit or the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.'

If this ship was keeping as near to the starboard side of the channel as possible in the area where the collision took place then the ship quite simply had nowhere to go.... to suggest that pilot or master would suffer 'some serious consequences' is laughable.

[Porscheguy]

If you’re the smaller vessel you always have the obligation to change course, and you never have the right of way, especially when it involves container ships. Doesn’t matter what the rule book says. Because you can be right and dead at the same time.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Porscheguy

If you’re the smaller vessel you always have the obligation to change course, and you never have the right of way, especially when it involves container ships. Doesn’t matter what the rule book says. Because you can be right and dead at the same time.

OMG, here we go again...

Jim

[cagney]

Looking at the video again.....
Two things stands out.
Astrosprinter appears to turn slightly to to port around 15 s into the video.
Elbe 5 does not have her main hoisted, and seems to have a neutral helm, maybe even a slight lee helm, and should have had no problem bearing off to port.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

OMG, here we go again...

Jim

The Hanne Knutsen/Atalanta thread on YBW ran to 75 pages and 751 posts

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

So, did the master of the Hanne Knutsen or either of the two pilots of the Hanne Knutsen get into strife or suffer 'some serious consequences ' whatsover when Atalanta ran under her bow? No they did not.

The one part of Rule 9 that isn't abrogated by the local German rules is 9(a) ... which states...
'(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit or the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.'

If this ship was keeping as near to the starboard side of the channel as possible in the area where the collision took place then the ship quite simply had nowhere to go.... to suggest that pilot or master would suffer 'some serious consequences' is laughable.

Well, we'll see. There will definitely be an investigation, and the BSU (Bundesstelle für Seeunfalluntersuchung) are known to be thorough. It may be that the conclusion will be that the ship "quite simply had no place to go", and that the crew did all they possibly could, and that's what it looks like to me, but that will have to be proved. And if it can't be proved that the ship "quite simply had no place to go", there will be civil and criminal/administrative consequences. You, Ping, know very well, that you can't just run down another vessel, sink her, and carry on about your business without any consequences, even if you are totally innocent. The investigation itself is quite a punishment.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Porscheguy

If you’re the smaller vessel you always have the obligation to change course, and you never have the right of way, especially when it involves container ships. Doesn’t matter what the rule book says. Because you can be right and dead at the same time.

Not at all. And you certainly cannot be right and dead at the same time. If you read the rule book, you'll find the relevant provisions.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by cagney

Have her main hoisted, and seems to have a neutral helm, maybe even a slight lee helm, and should have had no problem bearing off to port.

Yes, you are right, I did not realise they were sailing with staysail and foresail alone.

In all likelihood, there will be no real consequences for the pilot or captain of the container ship. They did little wrong. There will be a maritime investigation, that will come with recommendations to improve safety, and will in all likelihood give recommendations to all sides. I do not think there will be serious consequences for the captain of Elbe 5 either, but there is a chance.

The insurance companies will split the bill somehow, maybe 75-25, but that is another issue.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...... You, Ping, know very well, that you can't just run down another vessel, sink her, and carry on about your business without any consequences, even if you are totally innocent. The investigation itself is quite a punishment.

Well, yes I do know how these things pan out... the master of the AstroSprinter was most likely interviewed on her next call at Lubeck or wherever and that will most likely be the end of it as far as he is concerned . Ditto the pilot if the master did not have a pilotage exemption certificate ... make a statement... go home for lunch....

The crew of Elbe 5? Not so simple for them.....

And yes I have seen such things happen to others .... Sydney Harbour ferries v. yachts being quite common....and yes I have had to write reports...

The last time I had to write a report involved this one... still have a ream of paperwork in my office somewhere... we were a mile to the west of the incident waiting for the outbound ship to clear ... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2004-08-...hillip/2027810
That came within a hairsbreadth of being another Empress of Ireland/Storstad...

The fact that it took a year to release a report did not mean people were 'in the dock' for a year... the Captain of the HHB would only have had to right a report and post it in... as did I ... the pilot of the HBB carried on piloting as if nothing had happened, and the Master of the SpoT found himself looking for a new day job.

Any 'dealing with certificates' will happen at that stage....What goes down regarding insurance will not involve the crew of either ship.

What sail did she have up?
see below..

[Pelagic]

Seems like a pretty tricky place to sail if the river currents are as strong as Dockhead's experience.

My guess is they were motor sailing at a close reach heading upriver.... Holding near the bank to minimize current and with conservative sail as you would for a tourist trip.

Someone said that spot narrows so perhaps what was previously a conservative plan that allowed the skipper to go below for a coffee, or a toilet break..

Unfortunatley, the situation quickly became a pinch point and he got caught at the last minute .

Before condemning, we need the human element and details.

Dont speak German but what i saw on my phone was the tiller being pushed to port and the vessel turning to starboard.
.....To me it seems the skipper followed the general rule of avoiding turning to Port unless your bearing is behind them.

Amazing luck that no one was killed!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Well, yes I do know how these things pan out... the master of the AstroSprinter was most likely interviewed on her next call at Lubeck or wherever and that will most likely be the end of it as far as he is concerned . Ditto the pilot if the master did not have a pilotage exemption certificate ... make a statement... go home for lunch....

The crew of Elbe 5? Not so simple for them.....

And yes I have seen such things happen to others .... Sydney Harbour ferries v. yachts being quite common....and yes I have had to write reports...

The last time I had to write a report involved this one... still have a ream of paperwork in my office somewhere... we were a mile to the west of the incident waiting for the outbound ship to clear ... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2004-08-...hillip/2027810
That came within a hairsbreadth of being another Empress of Ireland/Storstad...

The fact that it took a year to release a report did not mean people were 'in the dock' for a year... the Captain of the HHB would only have had to right a report and post it in... as did I ... the pilot of the HBB carried on piloting as if nothing had happened, and the Master of the SpoT found himself looking for a new day job.

Any 'dealing with certificates' will happen at that stage....What goes down regarding insurance will not involve the crew of either ship.. . .

Voice of actual experience being invaluable in this discussion


But we'll see. I do read German and I'll try to follow the story and post what I see.



Incidentally, the skipper of Elbe 5 nee Wander Bird was apparently a retired Elbe pilot, so not a WAFI. Interesting.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Seems like a pretty tricky place to sail if the river currents are as strong as Dockhead's experience.. . .

Pleasure boats on the Elbe do not typically navigate against the current. They typically wait at anchor or in harbor for a fair tide. So you normally have pleasure boats all going one way.


There is quite a bit of room in most parts of the Elbe outside of the marked channel, so you typically stay at the edge of or slightly outside the channel to avoid commercial shipping.


That being said, the river is wide enough to tack in, and with a fair tide narrowing your tacking angle over ground, it can be worth tacking upwind, and a lot of boats do that. It's not that difficult to avoid shipping while doing so but you obviously have to be sharp about it.


The current is not really a problem for collision avoidance if you put your mind into water-referenced mode. You can see from the video at the beginning of this thread that the vivid picture of a constant bearing is not affected by current. But it can be a hell of a thing dealing with those speeding buoys!



Nipping into Amerikahafen when sailing down on the ebb is a bit hair raising -- the COG predictor line on your plotter is absolutely invaluable in order to steer properly to avoid smashing into the quay!