Schooner VS Containership

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's similar in Germany. In this case, the German press are reporting that both captains have been arrested. The container ship was diverted to Brunsbuttel and the VDR was seized. The container ship captain refused to make a statement to police.



It's a very serious matter because people were injured, one seriously.



A criminal case for reckless injury has already been opened against the schooner captain, an 82 year old retired Elbe pilot, and charges against others are being considered.



https://www.mopo.de/hamburg/polizei/...ngen--32677968


https://www.noz.de/lokales/westoverl...n-kapitaen-ein


This is being conducted by the Wasserschutzpolizei and is a separate process from the maritime investigation being done by the BSU: https://www.bsu-bund.de/DE/Aktuelles...ngen_node.html. Note that this case is classified as a "Sehr Schwerer Seeunfall" -- a Very Serious Maritime Accident, the first one of those the BSU has had in more than two years. The results of the investigation will be published here when it's finished, but don't hold your breath -- it will take a while.

Come on Dhead you can do better than that.... the piece in noz.de is a 4 year old article about a ship hitting a bridge - 'Frachters „Emsmoon“, der im Dezember 2015 die Friesenbrücke über die Ems'. Nothing to do with the case under discusion here.... different ship, different river, different time....

Of course the old man was in trouble.... the bridge had indisputable right of way..

And of course the current case is 'serious' .. the schooner sank... well settled on the bottom at least... nothing that won't buff out.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Come on Dhead you can do better than that.... the piece in noz.de is a 4 year old article about a ship hitting a bridge - 'Frachters „Emsmoon“, der im Dezember 2015 die Friesenbrücke über die Ems'. Nothing to do with the case under discusion here.... different ship, different river, different time....

Of course the old man was in trouble.... the bridge had indisputable right of way..

And of course the current case is 'serious' .. the schooner sank... well settled on the bottom at least... nothing that won't buff out.

Sorry, links mixed up somehow:


https://segelreporter.com/panorama/l...erige-bergung/


There is indeed a criminal case open against the Elbe 5 captain.


The German sources say that Elbe 5 missed stays, then instead of falling off in order to pass starboard to starboard with the container ship, got the helm command mixed up -- more or less what it looked like to us.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

There is indeed a criminal case open against the Elbe 5 captain.


The German sources say that Elbe 5 missed stays, then instead of falling off in order to pass starboard to starboard with the container ship, got the helm command mixed up -- more or less what it looked like to us.

This is an interesting study on the inherhent dangers of:

1 Poor radio communication.
2 Assumed courtesy towards sailboats.
3 Short range "anticipation" of a near miss with a sailboat

1 The schooner captain never answered the calls from the ship asking intentions.

2. The ship captain after receiving no answer would have had binocular eyes on the schooners deck, looking for activity. IF he had sounded Danger 5 blasts and per protocols altered course to starboard forcing a port to port passing, that would have forced the sailboat to Tack in close quarters..... He held off forcing that maneuver as a courtesy to the sailboat and perhaps because of room to maneuver with current
(Did he ever sound the danger signal)??

3.The "old" schooner captain was obviously distracted to have missed the radio watch and to have allowed the situation to develop.

He seems to have panicked, sounded the danger signal, which to his Pilot Training, means alter to starboard.

The prudent action would have been to bear off to port and spill sails so that there would only have been a near miss.

But perhaps his mind and signals to tourist crew confused his intent and it became a cluster f**k!

I am quite sure that ship captain was ready to alter to port, but held off when he heard a danger signal and saw frantic activity on deck.

But he will be blamed for not taking early and readily observable action to avoid the collision.

Sadley the old schooner captain is now on the beach with a final memory of a major professional failure

AIS does not help in this situation . VHF radio to confirm intent is what he will be blaming himself for.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



The German sources say that Elbe 5 missed stays, then instead of falling off in order to pass starboard to starboard with the container ship, got the helm command mixed up -- more or less what it looked like to us.

Thanks, Dockhead.


I agree.


Somebody, many somebodys, turned the wrong way.


Order was: "Turn to port!"



Like the "crew" pushed the tiller to port, not understanding that that meant the boat would turn to starboard.


OOOPS!


Dagnabbit, lack of direction and specificity sure screwed the pooch.

[El Pinguino]

From the Segelreporter...
Four days after the accident of the 136-year-old pilot cutter "No.5 Elbe" is still guessing the cause. How is the maritime piece of jewelery in front of the bow of the container freighter, whose helmsman apparently behaved in accordance with the rules and drove with right of way in the fairway? Does the age of 82-year-old captain Dieter P. have something to do with the accident?

In the meantime, the police have confirmed that a case has been instituted against him on suspicion of danger to the shipping traffic and also because of possible negligent assault. Eight people were easily injured.

Qualification test completed

The Hamburger Abendblatt reports that Dietmar P. has so far refused to testify. He is represented by a lawyer. So far, the retired sailor was not guilty of anything and did not show any deficits. In addition, only a few months ago, the captain had completed a test of the professional association, in which his suitability was confirmed.

It is still not clear why the skipper did not respond to warnings that appeared to have been transmitted by radio from a third source. The police should be there to evaluate the relevant data. The Federal Bureau of Maritime Casualty Investigation (BSU) deals with the clarification of the facts.

Whether the ship can be rescued is still not clear. The hopes that work can start on Wednesday were not confirmed. Rather, another Abendblatt report suggests that the salvage will be delayed until next week.

Time is pressing

The owner of the classic car, the Foundation Hamburg Maritim, there are fears that the schooner could break apart when upright, when the water pushes tons of heavy on the planks. The insurance company should have promised to regulate the damage. Your specialists take care of the transaction.

But time is short, because the water and the silt that has entered the cabin damage the interior, which is the true historical value of the two-master. The on-board electronics are probably destroyed, but there is a chance that the three engines can be rescued.'

No mention of the master of the Astrosprinter being in the slammer.... or even in the frame...

Time is no longer an issue... boat is already in dock....

[Stu Jackson]

Reminds me of the harbor pilot in San Francisco, John Coots (sp???) who ran his ship into the Bay Bridge a decade or ago.


Cosco Busan. I got a picture of it somewhere...

[El Pinguino]

And from the Mopo.....


'Stade -
"It was incredible luck, there could have been deaths here," says Daniel Beneke. The reporter was close up, as a giant freighter the little "white lady", officially "pilot saver. 5 Elbe ", had rammed at Stadersand in Stade. "The guests of the sailing ship could truly celebrate their second birthday."

A gray cloud cover hung in the sky. A warm breeze blew through Stade on Saturday afternoon - "but also a strong one", says Beneke, who was standing on the shore with his camera. The young local reporter was on the ground for a mission to nearby Julsand: There, a sailor had run onto a stack, a dam projecting into the river.

The pilot-saver should have been criss-crossed

"Together with a few firefighters, we looked relaxed at the Elbe, then saw the pilot-saver," says Beneke. Rather uncontrolled, the ship ( Elbe), which was recently fully restored for € 1.5 million, is said to have moved on the left side of the fairway towards Hamburg. "It was criss-crossing and confused. Then it looked as if it would steer into the main water. "Fatal: There was the 142-meter-long container freighter" Astro Sprinter "the white Lady (only 38 meters long) against.

Beneke saw the sailor hit the front of the freighter, was rammed and disappeared behind the container ship. "As the pot went on, we were all happy to see that the pilot's protector was right around the Elbe."'

No mention in that article either about the ship's captain refusing to testify or being in any trouble at all... three duds out of three...

[GrowleyMonster]

One thing should be perfectly clear. When it is a choice between running aground or alliding with a structure, OR of colliding with a much smaller vessel, in a narrow channel, the ship will ALWAYS choose to risk the collision. Why? Simple. Those rocks, bars, banks, etc are NOT going to give way, no matter what. The small vessel might, and should, and the pilot or the captain or mate on watch aboard the ship could hardly be blamed for assuming that the sailing vessel, presumably aware that he is responsible for not interfering with the safe passage of the larger motor vessel that must remain in the channel, will turn to avoid. That's why the ship did not give way. The only logical course of action and the only legally defensible action would be for the sailing vessel, as per the rules, to absolutely positively NOT hinder the container ship. Provisions of the local rules also support the container ship in not turning. BTW, stopping is not an option, either. First of all that leaves the ship in irons, and only bow and stern thrusters (many ships do not have them) would keep the ship from immediately grounding. Second, it is physically impossible. For an astern bell, with a low speed direct drive diesel, the engine is stopped, and then started in the opposite rotation. There is no clutch. Until the ship is slowed enough to reduce the torque on the trailing shaft enough that the start air can overcome it and spin the crankshaft the other way, it is NOT going to start, and all the attempt would do is to waste precious start air.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

One thing should be perfectly clear. When it is a choice between running aground or alliding with a structure, OR of colliding with a much smaller vessel, in a narrow channel, the ship will ALWAYS choose to risk the collision. Why? Simple. Those rocks, bars, banks, etc are NOT going to give way, no matter what. The small vessel might, and should, and the pilot or the captain or mate on watch aboard the ship could hardly be blamed for assuming that the sailing vessel, presumably aware that he is responsible for not interfering with the safe passage of the larger motor vessel that must remain in the channel, will turn to avoid. That's why the ship did not give way. The only logical course of action and the only legally defensible action would be for the sailing vessel, as per the rules, to absolutely positively NOT hinder the container ship. Provisions of the local rules also support the container ship in not turning. BTW, stopping is not an option, either. First of all that leaves the ship in irons, and only bow and stern thrusters (many ships do not have them) would keep the ship from immediately grounding. Second, it is physically impossible. For an astern bell, with a low speed direct drive diesel, the engine is stopped, and then started in the opposite rotation. There is no clutch. Until the ship is slowed enough to reduce the torque on the trailing shaft enough that the start air can overcome it and spin the crankshaft the other way, it is NOT going to start, and all the attempt would do is to waste precious start air.

I do not think any of that applies in this incident. Both vessels had room to maneuver and the ship was not chasing the schooner into running aground.

This is simply a case of a sailing skipper who for whatever reason was distracted enough to create a close quarter panic situation that caused his schooner to tack in front of a ship

[El Pinguino]

Inspection of the photo taken at time of of impact shows a red buoy close under the Astrosprinters stern, there is no water outside the buoys in that stretch of the river, the navigable width of which is about 370 metres. Note that inbound shipping seen in the background while the sinking of Elbe 5 was being filmed and photographed at Stadersand includes several of these..
and one of these
amongst other ships.... there seems to be a different ship in every shot and few without one.
Container ships of the class shown are 399 metres long by 59 mtres beam, the QM is 345 x 48 metres.... that does not leave outbound ships with lots of river to manouevre in.

As noted elsewhere the Astrosprinter does appear to make an alteration to port at the last moment.

Start reacting too early, even if you have room, and you can find yourself locked in 'the dance of death' as you go left, she goes left, you go right... etc.
Imagine what would have happened here if the ship had a sliver of water to starboard, she goes starbord as the schooner bears away.

As Growley says.... small craft are the soft option....

Be thankful for small mercies... ie no dead people..

[Montanan]

Maybe we've got this all wrong.

The Elbe 5 [ex Wander Bird] was originally operated for thirty years as a pilot schooner. Perhaps she was just trying to relive her younger days and intending to come alongside to allow a pilot to board the Astrospinner and just didn't quite correctly time her gybe so as to be port to starboard.

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Maybe we've got this all wrong.

The Elbe 5 [ex Wander Bird] was originally operated for thirty years as a pilot schooner. Perhaps she was just trying to relive her younger days and intending to come alongside to allow a pilot to board the Astrospinner and just didn't quite correctly time her gybe so as to be port to starboard.

If she'd tried to gybe, she might have been OK and passed starboard to. She tried to tack. Difficult on a schooner without the mainsail hoisted to help make the turn.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by psk125

If she'd tried to gybe, she might have been OK and passed starboard to. She tried to tack. Difficult on a schooner without the mainsail hoisted to help make the turn.

With the mainsail not hoisted the schooner may have been experiencing lee helm which would have made coming through a tack difficult and slow. But while the instruction was to turn to port into the wind, they pushed the tiller to port and would have fallen off the wind to starboard.

The container ship then finished the course change by helping bring her around to starboard by hitting her portside fore quadrant.

[unbusted67]

Several people on here have commented that the current rips through there. Is it possible that these guys are standing still and unable to really do much getting out of the way because they aren't' making way?

also as one person commented it might be a several step maneuver to slack the man sheet in order to fall off. Big old schooners carry a lot of weather helm.

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Montanan

With the mainsail not hoisted the schooner may have been experiencing lee helm which would have made coming through a tack difficult and slow. But while the instruction was to turn to port into the wind, they pushed the tiller to port and would have fallen off the wind to starboard.

The container ship then finished the course change by helping bring her around to starboard by hitting her portside fore quadrant.

The video shows them close-hauled on starboard tack, no? Turning to port would have been heading off, not turning into the wind. Having only the foresail and staysail up would have made heading off - to port, as was the order - easier and quicker. Confusing the boat's direction and the tiller's position is the mistake they made - let's not make the same mistake here and reverse the wind direction too.