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Old 18-05-2010, 18:15   #16
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Is the halyard shackle attached with a proper splice, or a bowline. If the latter, the length of the knot may be preventing full hoist. Likewise, are the headboard slides topping out against the sail track stop and restricting hoist.
Tie a short length of line at the luff jackline cringle and cunningham the luff tight to see if it removes the creases.
Some of these older boats (like mine) had a cringle about 12" above the tack shackle with a permanent cunningham.
That might help you salvage that sail.
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Old 18-05-2010, 18:33   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggray View Post
This is strange; you say the halyard is tight and there is still 6 inches of hoist left?

Might there be something preventing the top slide from going all the way up? And I'm sure you tensioned the halyard with the mainsheet loose.
I hate to say I'm positive but I am very sure the Luff is tight and the track is free. I will loosen the tack and verify that it will go all the way my next time out.
Although I have raised the main at times with the sheet tight (just due to rough seas) I do retighten the halyard once I loosen the sheet.
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Old 18-05-2010, 19:23   #18
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Meh. It's not uncommon for people to buy used or consignment sails. If you're careful about the fit it's not a big deal and can work out well but yours needs some real adjustment.

Also, instead of having it cut up, you might consider having yours evaluated and placed on consigment at your local chandlery and just buying a better fitting sail with the proceeds.
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Old 18-05-2010, 23:04   #19
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Halyard tension is too slack. as already pointed out.

I need to see one whole photo of the sail but it looks from the photos given that its cut with too much roach.

Was it a catamaran mainsail?

The bottom two track slugs are miles from the mast. Why?

What does it look like in 15kts close hauled?


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Old 18-05-2010, 23:38   #20
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Talk to a GOOD sailmaker / sailor, not just a saleman....

cfoxcvg,
You've gotten some good advice, and I agree with most of it....

But, I think Bash gave you the best approach....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
a good sailmaker will come to your boat and determine the cut while it's on the rig.
The REAL good news is that if you're still in South Florida, you're in luck....
You are about an hours drive from one of the best sailmakers in the country.....
Mack Sails in Stuart, FL 772-283-2306
Mack Sails Sailmakers for mainsails, headsails, genoas, spinnakers, lazy jacks
Introduction

Please give Travis and Colin a call.....e-mail them your photos....and ask them to come have a look.....

I've known them (and their Dad, Brad) for for many years....and I, and my family, have been satisfied customers for many years.....
(My Mom and Dad were customers of Mack-Shaw Sails in the 1970's....and my brother and I have been using Mack Sails for darn near 20 years...)

Both Travis and Colin Mack (and most of their staff) are sailors, and spent many weeks/months cruising the islands as kids, as well as club racing....and further sailing/cruising over the years.....all the time learning the art of sailmaking!!!

They make ALL of their sails right there in their loft in Stuart, FL.......and they use very high quality US-made Baimbridge Challenge cloth (mostly the top-of-the-line "Marblehead").....

They can do a "re-cut" and redesign your mainsail with ease....
And, they're very good riggers as well......so if you need your mast or boom (or gooseneck) re-worked, that's easy too.....


Sorry, if I seem to be giving you a "sales-pitch", (I have NO connection with them except for being a very satisfied customer)......it's just that I hear many "horror stories" about how some sailmakers "don't really know their ****".....and I can assure that Travis and Colin, DO know theirs!!!!


Fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 19-05-2010, 00:39   #21
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Here is a photo to show the foot. You can also see the angle of the boom. This is with 10-15 mph wind and the boom is well over the Port side, when pulled to center line it hangs very low.
Here's my armchair analysis - I presume both photos were taken at the same time. I copied the photos into a photo editor so I could magnify them and look at a few features.

- I am not sure if this is15 knots of wind in the photo - the reef ties are are completely limp and the trailing edge tell appears to be flying to leeward a bit.
- It appears you are also motoring which will play tricks with the apparent wind.
- The main halyard is made and there is probably not 6 inches at the top. IMO the luff length is OK as indicated by the tight bolt rope.
- The foot is very tight and the leech is very tight. In the first photo it even looks like the leech is hooked to windward indicating that the leech is too tight. It does not appear your sail has a leech line or I would suggest relaxing it.
- Due to the two blondes in photo 2 (nice) it is hard to say if you have a boom vang (it appears not) but your mid-boom sheeting is "way" too tight for the conditions - this tight sheeting also lowers the boom and tightens the leech. You should sheet out and move the traveler to windward to release leech tension.

The boom lifts due to pressure in the sail. Vang and sheeting hold it down and "shape" the sail for performance, traveler adjusts for power. If the boom is not lifting, the leech is closed and the sail is not filling the vang, mainsheet, and leech line could all be too tight.

A couple of photos, close hauled with wind in the sails would be useful. One looking straight up the leech one looking straight up the windward side showing the shape and another from the beam showing overall perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boden36 View Post
Have you checked the straightness of your mast? Regards, Richard.
This is a distinct possibility. Photo 1 shows an extra heavy duty back stay and it's hard to tell due to parallax but it appears there is a distinct bend above the spreaders.

I don't see the forestay or you flying a jib. If it is a masthead rig the forestay may be too long as well.

Race boats adjust the backstay for conditions - bending the mast aft does exactly what your sail is doing - moves the draft, creates overbend wrinkles or what some call inversion of the sail, this can be desirable in certain conditions. Do you have a hydraulically adjustable backstay and a fractional rig? If so get the backstay off almost completely for the "zero" wind conditions indicated in your photos.

You have dual mid-shrouds and uppers. The upper work against the backstay and the mids keep the middle of the mast straight. The base of the mast may also be adjustable. You want to know how much prebend you have with no backstay on.

You can do this simple check. Get all the backstay off and get a bucket of water. Put the bucket at the base of the mast and drop the main halyard in it. The bucket dampens sway in the halyard. Sight up the halyard and look at the gap I don't know how much gap is appropriate for your boat but if it is significant you will want to tighten the uppers to move the top forward and then adjust the mids to get the mast straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prerequisite View Post
There is also the possibility that your sail is fairly bagged out. The 'how old is it' question is rather subjective, so 'how much use has it had' is more appropriate. Has the sail been used past it's serviceable life?

When is the boom 95 degrees to the mast, when the sail is up or when the boom is just hanging from the topping lift? Keep in mind that the boom angle on most boats is controlled by a vang. The vang controls (among other things) the leech tension, so boom angles are a little fluid when it comes to sail trim. Also, while your diagonal wrinkles appear to come from the oversized sail, on a properly cut sail it is not uncommon to see some diagonal wrinkles like yours (to a much lesser degree though) on the bottom half or third of the sail. These are called 'overbend' wrinkles and can actually indicate proper trim.

I agree that a cunningham will help (but it won't solve the problem)- I find the vang and cunningham to be the most underused and under-appreciated trim lines.
In photo 1 you can see a fairly consistent curvature in the sail. The draft is aft. To move the draft forward you have to get tension off the leech and tension off the backstay.

I would loosen everything up, go out in some wind, lift the boom with the topper, get the tells to fly and have another look. I also think this sail is blown out. I don't think the foot, luff and leach dimensions are wrong, however.

Summary:

-halyard tight enough to too tight
- outhaul - too tight for light conditions
- way oversheeted - sheet for shape
- traveler to windward for power - traveler for power
- no wind - lift the boom with the topper to get some shape - the boom is heavy and is closing the leech
- check the backstay - completely off for these conditions
- what is the status of the forestay?
- sail likely blown out but do all the adjustments, get some wind in the sails (tells flying) and take more photos before recutting the sail.

In fact cutting the foot likely won't fix what is wrong. Imagine the distance from the goosneck to the masthead, the distance from the masthead to the boom end and the distance from the boom end to the goosneck. It's a triangle and from my seat teh perimeter of the triangle is tight (luff, leech and foot)
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Old 19-05-2010, 01:07   #22
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Here's my armchair analysis
And I think a very good analysis, Dan
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Old 19-05-2010, 05:40   #23
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The main is not up all the way and you have no smart pig rigged. All you need is some luff tension and your good to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfoxcvg View Post
Here is a photo to show the foot. You can also see the angle of the boom. This is with 10-15 mph wind and the boom is well over the Port side, when pulled to center line it hangs very low.
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Old 19-05-2010, 05:47   #24
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Joli - How do explain that there is no looseness between the mast slugs? The bolt rope is tight.
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Old 19-05-2010, 06:25   #25
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I would hardly call the the luff taught.

Lots of thing here:
1) The luff tension is non existent.
2) The clew car is missing allowing the boom to drop.
3) The bottom slugs are laced so the main can be reefed.
4) No Cunningham (AKA smart pig )is rigged to add luff tension.
5) Without luff tension the leech will droop and the main ends up in your lap.
6) It's not blowing 15, I see no sheep.

I would suggest the main sheet be free when hoisting the sail. Two block the main halyard with a winch, rig a cunningham and bring it down hard, install the car on the clew to hold the sail to the boom, and if it has a gooseneck on a track set that to it's proper position.



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Joli - How do explain that there is no looseness between the mast slugs? The bolt rope is tight.
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Old 19-05-2010, 07:31   #26
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Does anyone have a preference to either Cut the sail foot with an upward angle to make room for the bimini over raising the gooseneck and cutting the foot closer to 90 deg? I need to gain at lease 1.5' if not more.

Thank You everyone for the info and Thanks EX-Calif for the extra detail.
I think I should take her out and get some better photos and try some of the recommendations posted and record the outcome.
Like I said either way the sail needs to be recut or replaced because I need the boom to come up at least 1.5' for the bimini top, I just want to make sure the sail is right once we are done.
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Old 19-05-2010, 07:48   #27
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I think I should take her out and get some better photos and try some of the recommendations posted and record the outcome.
Yes, thats a good idea, cfoxcvg.

Get that halyard right up high. Remember the bolt rope will streach by at least 4%. It needs to be tioght enough to have a verticle wrinkle near the luff without wind in it.

If the knot/shackle at the head of the sail loses too much space between the head and the sheave you might need to fix that too

Have fun

Much better to try all the options before taking a razor to what could be a good sail



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Old 19-05-2010, 08:14   #28
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Here's a picture of our kids playng in the fore ground and another team (running into a moored boat) in the background.

Anyone notice the wrinkles? Why do they look like that? The main is not at full hoist.

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Old 19-05-2010, 08:18   #29
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Good luck, have your sailmaker come out with you. Show him how high you want the bimini and dodger to be. He'll take measurement for a re-cut and will probably re-cut the back end as well. When he's out with you have him look at the rig and your other sails. A good sailmaker will take the time to look at everything and won't charge you for his time.
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Old 19-05-2010, 08:19   #30
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Quote:
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Here's a picture of our kids playng in the fore ground and another team (running into a moored boat) in the background.

Anyone notice the wrinkles? Why do they look like that? The main is not at full hoist.

The wrinkles are in the main that is further away. Yes, the wrinkles could be caused by the main not being all the way up (although in this instance I see the head of the main pretty much at the top of the mast), but they could also be due to too much outhaul which over-tightens the foot, which is one of the problems I see in the OP's second picture.
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