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Old 10-02-2014, 08:31   #1
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jib trim question...

So we're reaching (beam to close) with a 100% jib and the middle tell tales are flowing nicely but the top 20-25% of the sail is collapsing. We've got the car as far forward as we can get it so the leech is tight.

What's the solution?

BTW, brand new sail; might be cut wrong?
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Old 10-02-2014, 08:44   #2
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Re: jib trim question...

Well I've have to see it but with a small sail its hard to fly it really well off the wind. You may have the leach too tight, best to move the car forward a few pins at a time and check out the tell tails. When your well off the wind it also helps if you can throw a snatch block on the rail and move the clew out as far as possible.
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Old 10-02-2014, 08:48   #3
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Re: jib trim question...

Hi, does the car travel far enough? Try pulling down harder by hand and see if the sail gets better. Was this light wind or blowing hard?

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Old 10-02-2014, 08:56   #4
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Re: jib trim question...

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Well I've have to see it but with a small sail its hard to fly it really well off the wind. You may have the leach too tight, best to move the car forward a few pins at a time and check out the tell tails. When your well off the wind it also helps if you can throw a snatch block on the rail and move the clew out as far as possible.
Yeah...we did both of those things. Even had crew sitting on the deck and forcing the clew out further with their legs when beam reaching since wisker poles aren't allowed (they earned their beer).

Never could get the top tales to fly right. Had to settle for the middle.

But the collapsing top was very curious and I still don't understand the physics of it.
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Old 10-02-2014, 08:59   #5
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Re: jib trim question...

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Originally Posted by wellin View Post
Hi, does the car travel far enough? Try pulling down harder by hand and see if the sail gets better. Was this light wind or blowing hard?

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10-15 kts. Usually ideal for the Beneteau First 10R and a boat that has traditionally been a solid performer.

Our assessment is that the new sail wasn't cut properly but still curious what a collapsing top means and how to fix it...generally speaking.
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:15   #6
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Re: jib trim question...

Tiny little dab of 4200 will fix that...
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:22   #7
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Re: jib trim question...

I'm still trying to figure out what a collapsing head of the sail means. Usually if the car (fairlead) is not far enough forward then the top of the sail will twist off and flutter a bit. If you can rig a snatch block to the rail then you can set the clew where ever you want and you should be able to properly trim it. Its just not very common these days to have sails that are not cut right.
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:37   #8
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Re: jib trim question...

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I'm still trying to figure out what a collapsing head of the sail means. Usually if the car (fairlead) is not far enough forward then the top of the sail will twist off and flutter a bit. If you can rig a snatch block to the rail then you can set the clew where ever you want and you should be able to properly trim it. Its just not very common these days to have sails that are not cut right.
I said "collapsing" but maybe I should have said "appeared to be backwinding" if that's a clearer image.

The boat has a few rings along the inside of the rail for attaching blocks but not a perforated toe rail so the options for rigging snatch blocks, although there, are somewhat limited.
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:47   #9
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Re: jib trim question...

I would set up a barber haul to remove the stall. You did say the car was full forward correct. this should give you great trim.
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Old 10-02-2014, 11:33   #10
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Re: jib trim question...

Less rake to move COE forward? Adjust the headstay or back stay tension?

I'm fascinated by these questions, but still new so don't laugh if these suggestions are obviously not the solution. The myriad of trim options remain maddeningly bewildering to me...
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Old 10-02-2014, 12:08   #11
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Re: jib trim question...

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Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
Yeah...we did both of those things. Even had crew sitting on the deck and forcing the clew out further with their legs when beam reaching since wisker poles aren't allowed (they earned their beer).

Never could get the top tales to fly right. Had to settle for the middle.

But the collapsing top was very curious and I still don't understand the physics of it.
You needed more "down" pull on the sheet not out. Move car forward or use a snatch block on a line lead forward.
And at deeper angles you may not be able to get them all to fly without a pole.
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Old 10-02-2014, 12:30   #12
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Re: jib trim question...

so you are on a beam to close reach with a 100% jib?
as others have stated need to go outboard with your lead.
these are normally placed a few inches foreward of the normal car position however once you are out board may have to readdress the fore and aft position.
When you ease a sheet that is inboard the leech will start to break away and that is the reason to go outboard.
If you do this and there is still a problem try easing your halyard just a little.
good luck
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Old 10-02-2014, 13:55   #13
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Re: jib trim question...

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Originally Posted by Nucdad1 View Post
I would set up a barber haul to remove the stall. You did say the car was full forward correct. this should give you great trim.
A rolling hitch around your jib sheet led to an eye on the deck forward of your car will let you know if you want to rig a more permanent barber haul or extend your track forward. Just tension the line until that flutter comes out of the uppermost part of your jib.

Maybe that's too obvious and you've already tried it?
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Old 10-02-2014, 14:01   #14
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Re: jib trim question...

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A rolling hitch around your jib sheet led to an eye on the deck forward of your car will let you know if you want to rig a more permanent barber haul or extend your track forward. Just tension the line until that flutter comes out of the uppermost part of your jib.

Maybe that's too obvious and you've already tried it?
Thought about it after the fact. Definitely worth a try. We'll give it a go if and when we get back on that boat.

The new sail and the corresponding severe drop in performance has us all scratching our heads. Should have been ideal conditions.
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Old 17-02-2014, 05:06   #15
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Re: jib trim question...

Get your sail maker into the act.
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