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Old 07-07-2013, 16:25   #631
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

A weekend in the Alameda estuary of SF Bay. Time to go below to retrieve my Colregs to see who has the right of way.

hint: its not the jet ski nor the power boat to starboard

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Old 07-07-2013, 16:40   #632
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

It's the Yang Ming Line that can't maneuver.
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Old 07-07-2013, 18:56   #633
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by J Clark H356 View Post
It's fairly easy to determine a collision course
One would think so wouldn't one?

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This is the real rule you should follow. If you look enough, and follow this rule, you won't get close enough to get run over.
Funny, this exact topic, and pretty close to this same explanation has been posted 3 or 4 times out of the 600 some odd comments. BUT the lightening rod topic keep meandering back to Colregs, and 'who's on first'. It is not really important who knows which is "Stand on or Give way" The important thing is how to share the info about how to just stay alive.

I was sent a PM today. It had a pretty succinct phrase in it:
" Sailboats sink, Ships repaint. " Actually the phrase was: "You sink (yachts), we swim (the commercial vessel)"

THAT is the end result of this debate. PS, sorry If I mangled the quote!
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Old 07-07-2013, 19:02   #634
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I'm sorry, but this post is just entirely incorrect. First, under the -colregs, noone has the "right of way". There are Stand on vessels and give way vessels.
A freighter, per se, does not have the right of way. it depends entirely on the situation.

It really would be appropriate if you and many others actually read and learned the 'colregs. Professional skippers, be they on commercial vessels or pleasure boats, expect you to follow the Colregs. Doing as you suggest only goes to confuse everyone and screw up traffic.

On a different thread, a "sailor" ntoed there was no way he would spend 11 weeks on a course, unless he wanted to become a delivery skipper.

Well it takes a lot more than an 11 week course to become a competent delivery skipper. An 11 weeks course may just teach him the colregs, and the signals used in the maritime world

We've been through all of this Carstenb. I was quoting someone. Please tell us a circumstance where both boats are moving (a sailboat couldn't really be aground in a freighter's path that I could imagine) where the freighter would not have the right of way. Then explain why a beginner should be thinking that way.

Beginners should stay away from freighters, period.

I don't recall who said he wouldn't take a 11 week class but it was probably the troll.
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Old 07-07-2013, 19:03   #635
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by chrisjs View Post
I think the previous poster was only stating the obvious. Even if a much larger vessel is not in the "stand on" position, the prudent skipper still does everything practical to keep the heck out of its way!! A freighter , a tanker, or a barge tow has little maneuverability compared to a small sailboat or power boat. As stated previously, I was part of the crew of RN minesweeper that plucked 3 survivors from the water after their sailboat tried applying "the rules" to a large oil tanker entering harbor in the UK many years back. The boat was matchwood. Definitely not be recommended!!

OF COURSE.
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Old 07-07-2013, 19:04   #636
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
To put into simpler terms, regardless of what people 'know', how they act, or what they do: This topic is occurring because some sailors cannot distinguish IF they are at the point of extremis. However they get there is pretty much not up for debate. It is still happening. HOW? What would cure this? If two vessels of such divergent abilitites can 'occupy' the same piece of real estate (water) at the same time and have a collision, they both have lost situational awareness and are not capable of determining that a 'risk of collision' not just exists, but is imminent. The sailboat is the loser. How to educate sailors to stay OUT of the front of vessels that will kill them? Do some ships NOT divert away? Of course. Is it wrong? Of course. Why do sailing vessels have such a difficult time determining if risk exists?

Everyone keeps dancing around the nuances of the written word. How about dancing around the skills needed to assess if risk exists? The physical act of determining is there is constant bearing, decreasing range. Period.

See the freighter? It is big. It is fast. It is moving faster than you think it is.

Keep your little sailboat away from the big freighter.
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Old 07-07-2013, 19:07   #637
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
My sailing instructor used to tell me that I should treat large freighters as if they were trains. And that is what I do. In European waters you are most likely to encounter freighters in a situation where he's the stand on vessel anyway.
You get run over by trains by lingering on their tracks. So don't. Same applies to freighters. And knowing where the track a freighter is on is easier than ever with AIS.

So when I encounter a freighter at see I make a course change, big enough so it will be obvious to the watch there.

I said the same thing on my blog. Don't try to outrun a freighter any more than you would a train.

There are a lot of driving analogies that just don't work on the water. The depth can vary greatly within a short distance on the water -- no gently graded roads out there. No lane lines in a channel. The troll who tried to compare boating to driving a truck was really out in La La Land.

But treting freighters like oncoming trains when considering whether to pass in front or in back of them is quite reasonable.
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Old 07-07-2013, 19:14   #638
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
No, I am incredulous that we can devolve into a pissing contest over the meaning and implementation of the nuances between "Give way," "Stand on," "Danger signal," "What's this mean" ETC ETC ETC. When the whole issue seems to be "How to tell if I am going to 'hit' something else" and if I don't know how, Can I learn this technique?

There is quite a lot of experience on this forum, and as 'Scoobert' showed, there are also one's who 'need' help but are shunned, ridiculed and driven off. The education needs to be so 'low brow' that (To borrow a cliche from Geico) "Even a caveman could do it." This isn't rocket science. (If it were, I would be greeting at WallyWorld)

Someone came into this forum recently who clearly had no desire to do anything except be told that of course he was right, and ALL those tugboats were wrong. I think the judgment that this person was troll was spot on.
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Old 07-07-2013, 23:46   #639
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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It may be fun for some, but for us that do this for a living it is downright heart attack itis. The wonderment of it all is 'Why does it continue?"
In total agreement, Cappy... I recall many times having my heart in my throat wondering how the hell I was going to control a tow and avoid a collision or near miss with pleasure craft... don't miss that one bit! cheers, Phil
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:37   #640
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by John A View Post
A weekend in the Alameda estuary of SF Bay. Time to go below to retrieve my Colregs to see who has the right of way.

hint: its not the jet ski nor the power boat to starboard
I despair.

Nobody has "the right of way."
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:46   #641
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I despair.

Nobody has "the right of way."
OH DANG!

I forgot about the non-accepted, less than perfect term.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:47   #642
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I despair.

Nobody has "the right of way."
That big light blue fella with the tug doing the steering does!

What was really fun to watch was when they decided to do a 180* with the container ship before pushing it sideways to the unloading area. The rest of us would simple stop and wait.
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Old 08-07-2013, 13:35   #643
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
To put into simpler terms, regardless of what people 'know', how they act, or what they do: This topic is occurring because some sailors cannot distinguish IF they are at the point of extremis. However they get there is pretty much not up for debate. It is still happening. HOW? What would cure this?
I would bet that if idiots started being run over it would start curing a few. After all some people should be taken out of the gene pool.

If more stupid people with "entitled" attitudes who don't seem to take responsibly for their own safety started coming to an end I don't see a down side.

When it comes down to a small sailboat verse a freighter .............. I don't need no "rules". My survival instinct normally over rides my sea-lawyer part.

I liked the line about the difference of splinters in the water compared to someone needing a little hull paint.

PS - there ain't no "right of way".
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Old 08-07-2013, 13:40   #644
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
We've been through all of this Carstenb. I was quoting someone. Please tell us a circumstance where both boats are moving (a sailboat couldn't really be aground in a freighter's path that I could imagine) where the freighter would not have the right of way. Then explain why a beginner should be thinking that way.

Beginners should stay away from freighters, period.

I don't recall who said he wouldn't take a 11 week class but it was probably the troll.
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Learn the coleegs and you don't have problem. Sail along thinking you are driving a car and you are a danger to everyone.

Not my problem if you insist the colregs don't matter. I sail about 20000 miles away from you so I don't have to keep an eye open for you
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Old 08-07-2013, 13:54   #645
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by J Clark H356 View Post
It's fairly easy to determine a collision course even if you don't have MARPHA or AIS. If the object doesn't move it's location RELATIVE TO a fixed point on your boat, you are on a collision course. Just pick a point on your lifelines that lines up with the other boat - while standing in the same location, the object should move either left or right over time. If it doesn't move horizontally, YOU WILL HIT IT! If you apply this technique while the other target is a good distance away, a minor course change will have major effect on your distance between. The closer you are, the more radical your maneuver must be. Obviously, this works better for ships a good distance away, not for an imminent collision. Next time out into water try this technique out.
An easier and more appropriate method is use a hand bearing compass. Constant bearing = collision.

Quote:
Rule 7

(d) In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken into account:

(i) Such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change.
(ii) Such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range.
I always keep one on the cockpit for this reason. They are also handy for plotting positions.
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