Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

[Scottuk]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's certainly not what I do. Pinching makes leeway spike way up and VMG to windward falls off a cliff. Also, going slower, the head seas will stop you.

I on the contrary fall off a bit and trade some AWA for speed. You really need the speed to get through the head seas. This is when a large, powerful boat with a long waterline really comes into its own.

In any case, speed is life in beating to windward, just like it is in flying. Speed gets you through the rough water and it counteracts leeway. Even a close reach, if you're fast, will get you upwind faster, than pinching in rough sea conditions.

Racers don't reef going upwind because reefed sails, especially headsails, don't work when going upwind. You'd rather struggle with weather helm and excessive heel, than with a sail which is producing more drag than lift because it's reefed down. This is unique to beating -- on any other point of sail, of course, it is far better to reef and sail flat.

If you plan to make a lot of miles upwind, you need to be sure to have on board a quality headsail which is sized to allow you to use it unreefed in the maximum wind condition you expect to be sailing in. Even if your mainsail is blown out crap, a quality headsail of the right size will get you upwind.

I first tried the technique during an offshore race. Since we were in last place I experimented. When I tried the technique we were able to pass a boat. When the other crew took over they sailed lower and faster but when we would come up after 4 hours we would again be behind. Doing the technique we passed the boat again and this happened a few times until finally we beat them. The speed variation was about 1 knot so we still were able to get through the waves. I have tried it subsequently with similar results but as I have stated previously it is dependent on sea state.

As far as leeway is concerned it is the product of a perpendicular wind pretaining to the surface area of the boat. With pointing a bit higher less surface area is exposed so is less affected by the wind.

[gjordan]

For Don C. and Thomm and all of the other small boat sailors, SIZE MATTERS, but I am sure everyone already knows that. To be a small boat cruiser will always be less comfortable than a larger boat (ie going to weather) but the consolation is that you can do a 2 or 3 year cruise at maybe 2 to 5% of what the folks in the 50-60 foot range spend. Will going upwind be fun" HELL NO", but from this thread we can all see that even in the larger($$$$) boats, it is still uncomfortable. Preparation has been mentioned, and I completely agree. My first cruise was from San Francisco to the Channel Islands and back. By the time I had gone around Point Conception and Point Sur on the way back I swore I would never go out of the bay again until I had a good dodger. I built a boom gallows/dodger combination and it made the next trip down and back much nicer. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the 6 most miserable sailing days of my life were on the trip up to Hawaii , and that without the preparation (good dodger) it would not have been doable. I had a good setting storm jib, but I wished I would have had a third reef available. I averaged about 100 miles a day during that period, and I think about a million gallons a day of water over the decks and cabin top, but didnt get a drop into the cabin, thanks to the dodger. The other saving grace was the windvane that steered better than I could in those conditions. Size matters and preparation really matters. ______Grant.

[Paul Elliott]

Here we are sailing against 25-kt winds and medium seas. We have cracked off a bit for comfort, but are definitely sailing upwind. We had about 500 miles of these "enhanced tradewinds" conditions as we left Hawaii for San Francisco. Note our staysail, reefed main, and furled genoa. At the time of this photo, two of our crew were seasick, but the other crewmember and I were definitely having fun. After a couple of days of this, the seasick guys got better and then we were all having fun.


The photo was taken by a friend in a big Navy Orion P3 aircraft (they were using us for tracking practice).

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Here we are sailing against 25-kt winds and medium seas. We have cracked off a bit for comfort, but are definitely sailing upwind. We had about 500 miles of these "enhanced tradewinds" conditions as we left Hawaii for San Francisco. Note our staysail, reefed main, and furled genoa. At the time of this photo, two of our crew were seasick, but the other crewmember and I were definitely having fun. After a couple of days of this, the seasick guys got better and then we were all having fun.

I'm a bit confused by this picture. As the sail trim in it would indicate an AWA of about 075 deg. relative. And the vessel pictured is actually heeling to weather. So it's not exactly upwind sailing. Unless I missed something?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Some of the points of going upwind have been covered. But off of the top of my head, below are some of the big impediments to making good VMG. Hopefully this "Thesis" will help some to better enjoy their boats, & yield performance gains.

Also, if each of the below points only accounts for a 1-2 deg loss of pointing, or 0.1kt, then if you're guilty of many of them, you’re not going to go to weather well.
So tune up your instruments, & nav based instruments, so that you can track your own progress (as in log it). In order to see what your baseline is now, & then later, when you make changes. Plus you can also use said info to compare your real world performance to your Polars.

1) Poor sail quality/old, blown out sails which cause you to heel excessively, & make loads of leeway. When folks get new sails, they invariably rant about how good they are, & the performance boosts they give. Almost always saying that they should have bought them sooner… had only they known.
This, even though experts had told them as much.

2) Poor sail trim. Including not using the traveler (or having one), & not properly positioning one’s jib leads. Leads to excessive heeling, & leeway. As well as requiring overcompensation with the helm, from a poorly balanced boat/rig.
Also, not changing sails when it’s warranted, as it’s “too much work”. Which contributes to #1.

3) Poorly cared for bottom, & foils. These two induce a lot of drag, & also cause more leeway due to reduced lift. Plus they make it harder to drive effectively, as the flow on said foils detaches more easily, & re-attaches more slowly. So that when this happens, many helmsmen tend to overcompensate. And “rudder” is Latin for brake (AKA steering by drag inducing device).

4) Too much gear topsides causing huge amounts of parasitic drag. And since the wind’s force is a squared function, this only increases as the breeze builds. Recall the America’s Cup racers in their full body Speedo’s? It was for good reason that such garments are worn.

5) Excess weight & windage aloft. Again, more pitching, & heeling. Which bounces the air out of your sails, slowing the boat with every knock. “See carbon fiber spars”, & “synthetic rigging” -> The why

6) Excess weight onboard in general. A biggie on cruising boats, due to their very nature. Offload everything, & I mean everything, at least yearly, if not more often. And then only put back what you NEED.
This excess weight also contributes to increased pitching, which detaches air flow from the sails, & water flow from your foils. Both of which are SLOW, & Greatly add to leeway.

7) Excess weight in the boat’s ends. Mostly self-explanatory, but let me give you an example. I’ve raced on 40 ton, 80’ Maxi’s where when I at 100kg went forward of the mast, fully half of the crew was literally screaming at me to get back aft. And my onboard job entailed that I worked AT the mast. This, with me massing only 25kg more than the bowman. And yeah he’d also take crap for being up forward too much.
So little things matter. Including that many racing boats have zero paint inside, or cleats up forward, & back aft. SIC

8) Proper rig tune. Even if your mast is a tree trunk, & “non-adjustable”, properly tuning it enables you to have the correct balance of helm for a region’s most common conditions, & how your boat handles them. So that with it, the boat almost sails herself. Thus needing little rudder input. Which, excessive helm use slows you down, impairs pointing, & increases leeway.

9) If hand steering, be smooth, use small amounts of rudder, & drive your S's.

There’s more, but said data is archived in my brain’s deeper recesses. Though if you want to see some of the above scientifically explained & proven, click on the link below. Where designer John Shuttleworth explains how most of the above performance factors apply (to multihulls). It’s interesting reading.
Considerations for Seaworthiness

This should be a sticky. I'm printing and saving it.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[gjordan]

Paul, a boat reefed just right to not sail on its ear is a beautiful thing. Leaving Hawaii for Los Angeles on a delivery is the only time I ever got actually seasick on a sailboat. First night out, rough seas and head winds, and the other 3 crew members passing the barf bucket back and forth, and I just could not take it. It was more than 20 knots, but any upwind sailing in rough conditions can get old real quick. _____Grant.

[Seighlor]

In a racing situation, I've always enjoyed the windward beats. Cruising, not so much.

As has been mentioned here, good (that is, flat) sails are a must. Also, a headsail of the proper size for conditions is important to keep your boat on its feet. And a less than 100% headsail is much easier to tack than a big overlapping genoa.

[Smokeys Kitchen]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Here we are sailing against 25-kt winds and medium seas. We have cracked off a bit for comfort, but are definitely sailing upwind. We had about 500 miles of these "enhanced tradewinds" conditions as we left Hawaii for San Francisco. Note our staysail, reefed main, and furled genoa. At the time of this photo, two of our crew were seasick, but the other crewmember and I were definitely having fun. After a couple of days of this, the seasick guys got better and then we were all having fun.


The photo was taken by a friend in a big Navy Orion P3 aircraft (they were using us for tracking practice).

Hi Paul,

Can you say if you had one or two reefs in the main?

Thanks,
Ron

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by Smokeys Kitchen

Hi Paul,

Can you say if you had one or two reefs in the main?

Thanks,
Ron

It's a Leisurefurl boom-furling main, so my reef points may not be the same as yours. Also, my boat is a fairly heavy cruiser, and she doesn't mind the wind. I think we are set at perhaps somewhere between first and second reef, compared to a typical rig.

Here's another picture, which better shows the mainsail.

[carlheintz]

Bring it on! That's sailing! The only time it's not so fun is when the temps are below 60. Then it transforms to miserable.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I certainly agree that sailing upwind in 20 knots TWS in the Med is brutal. Really bash you around. 20 knots TWS upwind in the open Atlantic is certainly much easier.

But 20 knots TWS in the Med is NOT like 30 knots TWS in the Atlantic. 30 knots TWS in the Atlantic is still reasonably comfortable -- IF you have the right sails for it. The seas build up, but unless there is wind over tide, they won't be steep, and they won't yet be breaking at that wind force.

30 knots TWS is just where I change from my blade jib to my staysail. The staysail is self-tacking and made of extra-heavy cloth (it doubles as storm jib), so the shape is not great (I can help it a bit by barber-hauling), so I lose about 5 degrees AWA compared to the unreefed blade, or even more since I will fall off to get more speed, once I've changed to the staysail. But I can get upwind in 30 knots TWS in the open Atlantic. I cannot do it in the Baltic or Med. In the Baltic in 30 knots TWS, if my destination is upwind, I look for somewhere to get the anchor down.

Even sailing on a close reach in 25 to 30 TWS this past summer, in the Baltic, I got bashed so hard that a part of my rail was broken off. Ocean sailors can't really quite imagine what these waters are like in those conditions. Can you say "green water on deck"?

Well, I was afraid that some thought that I was exaggerating

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by gjordan

For Don C. and Thomm and all of the other small boat sailors, SIZE MATTERS, but I am sure everyone already knows that. To be a small boat cruiser will always be less comfortable than a larger boat (ie going to weather) but the consolation is that you can do a 2 or 3 year cruise at maybe 2 to 5% of what the folks in the 50-60 foot range spend. Will going upwind be fun" HELL NO", but from this thread we can all see that even in the larger($$$$) boats, it is still uncomfortable. Preparation has been mentioned, and I completely agree. My first cruise was from San Francisco to the Channel Islands and back. By the time I had gone around Point Conception and Point Sur on the way back I swore I would never go out of the bay again until I had a good dodger. I built a boom gallows/dodger combination and it made the next trip down and back much nicer. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the 6 most miserable sailing days of my life were on the trip up to Hawaii , and that without the preparation (good dodger) it would not have been doable. I had a good setting storm jib, but I wished I would have had a third reef available. I averaged about 100 miles a day during that period, and I think about a million gallons a day of water over the decks and cabin top, but didnt get a drop into the cabin, thanks to the dodger. The other saving grace was the windvane that steered better than I could in those conditions. Size matters and preparation really matters. ______Grant.

Oh yeah I totally agree size matters, I was thinking of my own little boat. BUT! I have been on bigger flatter hull boats that were no fun either slamming to weather either! Fast but no fun when they make you sleep in the bow. So size (water line length IMO) and shape matter to me.

[Paul Elliott]

On my heavy cruiser (pictures a few posts above), the hull shape means that we don't pound and slam in head seas nearly as much as the flatter-hull racing-style hulls. We also don't go nearly as fast downwind, and we hobby-horse more easily than they do, so there are compromises to be made..

Location is also important. I am much more comfortable in 12-ft long-period deep ocean swells than in short-period 3-ft seas here in the Salish Sea.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by gjordan

For Don C. and Thomm and all of the other small boat sailors, SIZE MATTERS, but I am sure everyone already knows that. To be a small boat cruiser will always be less comfortable than a larger boat (ie going to weather) but the consolation is that you can do a 2 or 3 year cruise at maybe 2 to 5% of what the folks in the 50-60 foot range spend. Will going upwind be fun" HELL NO", but from this thread we can all see that even in the larger($$$$) boats, it is still uncomfortable. Preparation has been mentioned, and I completely agree. My first cruise was from San Francisco to the Channel Islands and back. By the time I had gone around Point Conception and Point Sur on the way back I swore I would never go out of the bay again until I had a good dodger. I built a boom gallows/dodger combination and it made the next trip down and back much nicer. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the 6 most miserable sailing days of my life were on the trip up to Hawaii , and that without the preparation (good dodger) it would not have been doable. I had a good setting storm jib, but I wished I would have had a third reef available. I averaged about 100 miles a day during that period, and I think about a million gallons a day of water over the decks and cabin top, but didnt get a drop into the cabin, thanks to the dodger. The other saving grace was the windvane that steered better than I could in those conditions. Size matters and preparation really matters. ______Grant.

Yep, the dodger is very important. It's nice to be dry and out of the wind. My good old boat came with a dodger.

One thing that is nice about a smaller boat with tiller steering is that even when not on autopilot you are right up next to and being protected by your dodger (it keeps you book dry also!)

But I'm usually on autopilot even in big winds going upwind.

My port "lifeline" is untied and lying on the deck in the photo. It's polyester/dyneema

[Polux]

This is what my wife can take without getting seasick, about 18K apparent wind with the boat close to the wind making about 7.5K. As you can see the waves are small but even so, because they are close and the boat goes fast, they slam quite hard on the boat. We had went upwind on the med sometimes with 30k with 4 meters waves, but not by my choice and it is a torment for Isabel.