Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Aha! So I have had a super fast boat all this time and I didn't even know it! I'm king of the world! Ok now where is that Triton I wanted to race a couple weeks ago?

There was some guys that developed a fast small sports boat and designed a gennaker as part of the sail wardrobe....just to find out that they were not able to fly it....the boat sailed upwind all the time, no way to have the wind on the back Not cheap, but if you have 150 000 euros you can have a lot of fun and sail always upwind.

[highside]

Sailing upwind in my big full keel Island Packet 485 is great fun at 20 kts and even more fun in 30 kts! Here's a video of us sailing upwind last weekend in 30-40 kts (highest gust I saw was 47) out of Marina Del Rey. The lighter fin keel boats can sail about 1 kt faster than us in light winds, funny, none of them were out to race this day!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdf9sJyl6Y0

[thomm225]

Looks like the winds were 16-21 knots during this America's Cup Race in 2007.

They aren't cruisers but are still enjoyable to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGxy5Sxzttc

[boatman61]

21 knots..??
That's getting borderline for America's Cup boats..

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

That question is best posed of the America's Cup crews I suppose. They sail those slow boats....

Ahhhh.... you guys are cruising America's Cup class cats. I didn't know that.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by boatman61

21 knots..??
That's getting borderline for America's Cup boats..

Yep, they're not built for cruising.

I just like watching the America's Cup mono's. Team New Zealand even made a downwind pass in the video above.......rolling right over Alinghi

[Polux]

Originally Posted by boatman61

21 knots..??
That's getting borderline for America's Cup boats..

You know, I went to Valencia, on the last time those boats race, to see the races....and it was a pain...most of the time they would not race due to excessive wind, we waited for hours in front of the giant screens to see if the wind went down, to no avail...and you look at the wind and I can tell you that any cruiser would go out sailing on that wind

However great boats upwind, but only in weak and low medium winds.

[barnakiel]

We have been there.

You are not sailing an AC foiler. You are sailing a Lagoon or, if you are rich, an Outremer.

To give some justice to the cat that does not go upwind: last time we were fighting for our lives at le Diamant (in our sleek mono) we got overtaken, apparently effortlessly, by a Lagoon.

Was it bigger than our boat? Yes.
Was it motor-sailing? Probably.

Was it going upwind better than us? Beyond ANY doubt.

Many cruising cats suck upwind, and so do most cruising monos.

;-)

b.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I guess it depends a bit by what you mean by having fun, but I don't buy your analysis here. If its blowing 20kt+ true out of the direction you are trying to go and the seas are running then motoring straight into it generally makes things even less uncomfortable, aka less fun. Most cruisers I know turn on the engine when the winds are light, not to bash into headwinds. Maybe turn it on if you are trying to close the last few hours of a multi-day passage and the winds turn on the nose.

I just can't see this romanticized, macho sport-man image of beating into winds and seas for days on end and saying how much fun it is. It is just something to get through so you you can write about on the Interweb.

If it was so much fun, people wouldn't pay me to take their boats back upwind. The cheapest place to buy a boat is where the owner is facing a 1500 mile beat back home.

Standard mode for a coastal delivery into 20 knots is motorsailing with a double reef in the main. The VMG is better than straight motoring or straight sailing, and time is money.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

If it was so much fun, people wouldn't pay me to take their boats back upwind. The cheapest place to buy a boat is where the owner is facing a 1500 mile beat back home.

Standard mode for a coastal delivery into 20 knots is motorsailing with a double reef in the main. The VMG is better than straight motoring or straight sailing, and time is money.

Indeed. I do a 1500 mile beat home every year.

Best VMG in conditions too hard for sailing really well hard on the wind -- i.e., too much wind to sail without reefing the headsail -- is to trim the main flat and deeply reefed, traveler up to windward, and motorsail with the main just drawing. Usually about 20 -- 25 AWA on my boat.

But this uses a lot of fuel in hard sea conditions.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed. I do a 1500 mile beat home every year.

Best VMG in conditions too hard for sailing really well hard on the wind -- i.e., too much wind to sail without reefing the headsail -- is to trim the main flat and deeply reefed, traveler up to windward, and motorsail with the main just drawing. Usually about 20 -- 25 AWA on my boat.

But this uses a lot of fuel in hard sea conditions.

And clearly goes in the 'not fun' category

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Standard mode for a coastal delivery into 20 knots is motorsailing with a double reef in the main. The VMG is better than straight motoring or straight sailing, and time is money.

I remember a trip like that with a Peterson 44... it was actually kinda nice.... engine was only turning over at 1800 or so but that plus the double reefed main we were making fairly good time, pointing pretty high and down below it wasn't bad at all... in the aft cabin!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

And clearly goes in the 'not fun' category

Indeed.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Not stupid. Judging from your description it sounds like your staysail is not meant to augment the jib in lighter air, i.e. your boat is not cutter rigged, is that right? If it is designed to be used in heavier winds it is a heavier weight sail and is meant to be used with a reefed main to keep the sails' center of effort where it belongs. Off the wind it may give you more horsepower but IMO, on the wind, used with the genoa, it is just more drag than drive, so yes, diminishes pointing ability.
Here are just a couple links that might be helpful,
https://www.quantumsails.com/resourc...ail-trim-guide
Rig for a Staysail | Cruising World

Thank you Don, and for the link. You are correct that my boat is not designed to be run as a cutter, or even a (so-called) "slutter" , i.e. a sloop with the ability to use both headsails in certain conditions, for ex. on a reach. The detachable inner forestay is instead intended for a heavier weighted staysail (or storm jib) to be used, as you point out, in lieu of a jib or genoa headsail. The in-mast mainsail furler then allows you to bring all your canvas closer to the mast and thus the COE as you mentioned.

I've been tempted to try flying the staysail with my Yankee jib in reaching (maybe 60-120 or so AWA) but the winch configuration really doesn't facilitate. There is only one set of primary winches in the cockpit, with another pair of winches just aft of the cockpit that I use for my spinnaker/chute. Always fun experimenting/learning though.

[hsi88]

A little late to this thread, but its interesting to read the "love it" "hate it" opinions of sailing in big winds. Sailing in the 80's, there was no Internet to tell me that sailing during small craft advisories was supposed to be dangerous. Having learned to sail on an 11 footer, I considered my 25 foot MacGregor to be a medium sized boat. Didn't even know I could reef the main until I had owned the boat a while. Simply let it out if things got dicey. On a windy day, I would sail with the standard jib and main. It was a fine line between sailing close to the wind and having the boat round up. And riding the rail was a common occurrence. Probably to my advantage was the lack of sail area and the boats ability to heel.

Also, as many have mentioned, its more about sea conditions than wind (at least to a point). Not having a dodger, about a half hour of waves over the bow was about all I could take, so I seldom went out when waves hit 3-4 feet. Had no choice one time and made it home with 8-10 foot breaking waves by motoring with bare poles. My scariest trip. I learned to crab over the top of the waves which kept me from crashing nose first through them. I would watch with worry as the outboard would disappear completely, happy to see it still running when the stern popped back up. The whole time I knew if I was caught sideways or the engine quit, I would roll. My only hope being the positive floatation and my ability to stay in the cockpit. But I lucked out.

I was the only sailboat on the Chesapeake for most of the day (that I could see). The wind right on the nose. But later in the day the wind and waves diminished and I was again riding the rail as close to the wind as I could go, wind still blowing over 20 knots. A vast improvement over the morning wind and waves. So I guess I'm on the side of 20+ is fun! Having a light weight boat does not seem to be a hindrance as long as the sea state is reasonable. Its an experience everyone should enjoy at least once!