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Old 27-08-2013, 14:51   #46
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Maybe the USCG figures that if you scuttle your boat, neither you nor it will bother them again so, you know, scuttle the damned thing and be done with it?

As if they're going to send an armed boarding party to forcibly pull anyone off a boat if you say "You go 'way now." ?

Raku-
Technically, there are no unused frequencies. They're all allocated, usually by ITU convention, and they're all allocated based on usage. Not used? Then it gets allocated to someone else, sooner or later. Transponders usually have a limited range of frequency options built into them, targeted to specific services. No mysteries there except which one he used.
Programmable transponder on a boat? Using non-standard frequencies? Most unusual.
But when you say you don't know any druggies...Have you run background checks on everyone you have ever met? One never knows what the nice folks next door really do for a living, unless one is The Shadow.

Hello, I didn't say I don't know any "druggies." I said I don't know any DRUG SMUGGLERS. And I don't. Depending on how people live their lives, it is possible to be reasonably certain that they really are a teacher, or a plumber, or an architect, and not a drug smuggler.

So go ahead and read the rest of the thread. I never claimed to have a whit of expertise about transponders, and anyone who wants to start looking at such equipment by talking to me is either nuts or just SOL.

No, the Coast Guard did not use a show of weapons force to make everyone get off the boat. the captain (and I believe he is one, not a skipper) wanted his crew off and safe, and the Coast Guard said "every one or no one." To protect his crew, he went also.
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Old 27-08-2013, 15:03   #47
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
... the captain (and I believe he is one, not a skipper) wanted his crew off and safe, and the Coast Guard said "every one or no one." To protect his crew, he went also.
So how would that work.... you send your crew up the ladder and then say that you are staying on your boat.... what is the CG going to do.... send your crew back down??
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Old 27-08-2013, 15:13   #48
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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So how would that work.... you send your crew up the ladder and then say that you are staying on your boat.... what is the CG going to do.... send your crew back down??

How it works is that the Coast Guard came out on a rescue and insisted on rescuing everyone. Already asked and answered, by the way ...
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Old 27-08-2013, 15:36   #49
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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So how would that work.... you send your crew up the ladder and then say that you are staying on your boat.... what is the CG going to do.... send your crew back down??
No of course not....

Each rescue is always a little different.

I just don't know what authority the USCG can order you off your boat against your will...by definition that's arrest and false arrest if there's no crime....

Maybe something that I never heard of...but that's after a boatload of years on the water involved with rescues in and out of the USCG....AND having the position to be the guy directing the SAR case in the air and the OPCEN.

I know the USCG can consider your boat a "manifestly unsafe voyage" and direct you to a safe harbor to tie up and not move your boat till repaired and inspected...kinda what we all would want as the captain too!!!! Especially after the crew leaves you stranded.

Many...many rescues involve taking one or part of the crew of a vessel off. But again...I have never heard of an actual case were the captain was "ordered off"...

I also have never heard of the USCG requiring a crew to scuttle a craft. It's the USCG's policy to try to save property...not scuttle it. They will normally broadcast it's position so that it can be saved/salvaged. The USCG will usually try and do it if at all feasible.

Search and rescue is no big mystery but is a little different much of the time due to the personalities involved. However...there are pretty well established protocols they follow that have been formulated over more than 2 centuries of saving lives and property. We read stories all the time...in all kinds of media (even I rarely trust most stories to be completely factual)....and again I never heard of an ordered abandonment or scuttling.
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Old 27-08-2013, 15:49   #50
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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No of course not....

Each rescue is always a little different.

I just don't know what authority the USCG can order you off your boat against your will...by definition that's arrest and false arrest if there's no crime....

Maybe something that I never heard of...but that's after a boatload of years on the water involved with rescues in and out of the USCG....AND having the position to be the guy directing the SAR case in the air and the OPCEN.

I know the USCG can consider your boat a "manifestly unsafe voyage" and direct you to a safe harbor to tie up and not move your boat till repaired and inspected...kinda what we all would want as the captain too!!!! Especially after the crew leaves you stranded.

Many...many rescues involve taking one or part of the crew of a vessel off. But again...I have never heard of an actual case were the captain was "ordered off"...

I also have never heard of the USCG requiring a crew to scuttle a craft. It's the USCG's policy to try to save property...not scuttle it. They will normally broadcast it's position so that it can be saved/salvaged. The USCG will usually try and do it if at all feasible.

Search and rescue is no big mystery but is a little different much of the time due to the personalities involved. However...there are pretty well established protocols they follow that have been formulated over more than 2 centuries of saving lives and property. We read stories all the time...in all kinds of media (even I rarely trust most stories to be completely factual)....and again I never heard of an ordered abandonment or scuttling.

Until now.

As I said, they first tried to save the boat, but since the boat had no rudder and the waves were big (no, I don't know "how big"), they were not able. I know they snapped one tow line and think it might have been two.

I do not know WHY they said everyone had to leave the boat, but either that's true or the man it happened to is a liar, and I don't believe him to be one. Any mistakes are likely mine in the retelling.

I believe the Coast Guard did go to great lengths to try to save the boat. I can't explain why your experience is different than the one I reported except that as you said, each situation is different. I wasn't there, so I can't clarify anything.

But I see a good head of steam getting up on this one, and my prediction is that crows (and by that I don't mean you) will still be pecking at it three days from now. Anyone want to take that bet?
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Old 27-08-2013, 16:10   #51
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

it's the kind of story that gets pecked at..especially when there's no secondary verification...it's WAY out of the ordinary..and the reporting source has stated that the original source is unapproachable for any verification.

well if you want someone to believe you...but I already can imagine your response to that statement....

I can probably verify the story...do you have a name?, boat name? approximate date?...approximate location?...anything? I'll be glad to see if I can find the facts surrounding the story.
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Old 27-08-2013, 16:30   #52
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

46 USC 4308

Section 4308 authorizes an appropriate official to terminate the unsafe operation of recreational vessels. If the official observes the vessel being operated without sufficient lifesaving or firefighting devices or in an overloaded or other unsafe condition (as defined in regulations) and believes the operation creates an especially hazardous condition, the operator may be directed to take immediate and reasonable steps necessary for safety, including returning to a mooring and remaining there until the hazard is corrected or ended. This does not prevent the assessment of any applicable civil penalties nor the pursuing of appropriate criminal action.

Doesn't sound like you can be compelled to leave your vessel if this is the background for citing Manifestly Unsafe Voyages.....

Sure the USCG in the middle of the storm sure can sound convincing...but bring out the lawyers and see if they forced you off your boat whether of not you can sue them for loss of property. Sure...I know...can't sue the government...well sure you can it happens all the time...you just have to have the courts/govt's permission.
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Old 27-08-2013, 17:35   #53
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I also have never heard of the USCG requiring a crew to scuttle a craft. It's the USCG's policy to try to save property...not scuttle it. They will normally broadcast it's position so that it can be saved/salvaged. The USCG will usually try and do it if at all feasible.
psneeld - Thanks for your input, and your past service.

Seems like that's the answer, at least in situations where the USCG in involved. Makes perfect sense, they are noting the position of the boat and calling for salvage and in the meantime, assuming they plucked you off the boat, they can hold you accountable if someone hits it and is damaged or the boat washes up on the beach. If you scuttle it, the environmental downside is the pollution from diesel/oil/antifreeze/battery acid/lead contamination.

As for the high seas, where there is no law.....
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Old 27-08-2013, 18:35   #54
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If for what ever reason I had to leave and did not feel it would be easy or cost effective to recover my boat I would rather sink it, rather than see it wash up some place and have it striped. If I cant have it nobody will. Just saying
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Old 27-08-2013, 18:43   #55
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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No of course not....
Erm, it was a rhetorical question........
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Old 27-08-2013, 19:09   #56
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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it's the kind of story that gets pecked at..especially when there's no secondary verification...it's WAY out of the ordinary..and the reporting source has stated that the original source is unapproachable for any verification.

well if you want someone to believe you...but I already can imagine your response to that statement....

I can probably verify the story...do you have a name?, boat name? approximate date?...approximate location?...anything? I'll be glad to see if I can find the facts surrounding the story.

If I had a *real life* friend who felt he or she had to verify something I'd said, well, that person wouldn't be a friend any more.

I don't care who believes me or who does not. There are people here who are wanna be Columbos, and who think it's their mission online to "catch the liars."

It's boorish behavior, but this being the internet, they can find companions who go along with such absurd behavior -- behavior that simply would not be tolerated in real life.

You think I wouldn't put this guy's name out there -- but I'd name his boat? So you can -- what? Invade his life via the Internet? Any information I gave you CLEARLY would be misused.

It's a story. I heard it first hand. I know for a fact that he left his boat, rudderless and adrift, in the Gulf of Mexico, and that when the Coast Guard got him on shore, he hired a boat and used its transponder (and other information, he had lat and long of course but no point to stating those things) to retrieve it.

This thread has taken a 90 turn from 'abandoning ship' to 'prove Raku is a liar.' That's the goal now, and anything more I said (not that I would) would be twisted to meet that goal.

Another time it would be someone else. We've sat here with minimal information and I've *seen* people make long lists of what the person should have done (and PRESUMABLY didn't do, emphasis on presumably).

Thursday night this will still be going on, with people still asking for information that IMO would violate this man's expectation of reasonably privacy.

In real life we can just cross the street and not bother with it.
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Old 27-08-2013, 19:15   #57
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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46 USC 4308

Section 4308 authorizes an appropriate official to terminate the unsafe operation of recreational vessels. If the official observes the vessel being operated without sufficient lifesaving or firefighting devices or in an overloaded or other unsafe condition (as defined in regulations) and believes the operation creates an especially hazardous condition, the operator may be directed to take immediate and reasonable steps necessary for safety, including returning to a mooring and remaining there until the hazard is corrected or ended. This does not prevent the assessment of any applicable civil penalties nor the pursuing of appropriate criminal action.

Doesn't sound like you can be compelled to leave your vessel if this is the background for citing Manifestly Unsafe Voyages.....

Sure the USCG in the middle of the storm sure can sound convincing...but bring out the lawyers and see if they forced you off your boat whether of not you can sue them for loss of property. Sure...I know...can't sue the government...well sure you can it happens all the time...you just have to have the courts/govt's permission.

He didn't mention any lawyers being around, and I believe the Coast Guard knows what it can and cannot do. And, I don't fault them (neither does the fellow whose boat this happened to). They tried -- TWICE -- to tow the vessel. But I've had my boat towed with similar circumstances but not nearly as bad water, and it was really hard on the tow boat.

I would honestly like people's opinion on this next part, because it's something I've been told but have not tested.

I have a friend -- he does the boat repairs on my boat when they're needed, and is an all-around good guy -- who says that if I lost my rudder again (please God NOOOOOO!), I could hang a drogue from each headsail winch (on line, of course), break out the winch, and steer the boat that way.

I don't know how well that would work in heavy seas -- might be more resistance on those drogues than I could handle, even with a winch. But I do have two single drogues.

What say you all about that?
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Old 27-08-2013, 19:17   #58
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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If for what ever reason I had to leave and did not feel it would be easy or cost effective to recover my boat I would rather sink it, rather than see it wash up some place and have it striped. If I cant have it nobody will. Just saying

I can completely relate to that. I had to sell my first boat for salvage because of major structural problems. It was tied up more or less opposite my present boat. I knew what was going to happen to it. Nevertheless when I came home one night and they had taken the mast, I just cried. It was like pulling the plug on a loved one, or putting a pet to sleep. It was awful. I would have rather seen her resting at the bottom, making a new home for fish and crabs.
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Old 27-08-2013, 19:34   #59
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Until now.

As I said, they first tried to save the boat, but since the boat had no rudder and the waves were big (no, I don't know "how big"), they were not able. I know they snapped one tow line and think it might have been two.

I do not know WHY they said everyone had to leave the boat, but either that's true or the man it happened to is a liar, and I don't believe him to be one. Any mistakes are likely mine in the retelling.

I believe the Coast Guard did go to great lengths to try to save the boat. I can't explain why your experience is different than the one I reported except that as you said, each situation is different. I wasn't there, so I can't clarify anything.

But I see a good head of steam getting up on this one, and my prediction is that crows (and by that I don't mean you) will still be pecking at it three days from now. Anyone want to take that bet?
The graceful way out of this is to consider that this acquaintance was telling you a tale to impress you. Heaven knows, I am a trusting (and as it turns out gullible soul) thank goodness for me my husband is not!
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:00   #60
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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The graceful way out of this is to consider that this acquaintance was telling you a tale to impress you. Heaven knows, I am a trusting (and as it turns out gullible soul) thank goodness for me my husband is not!

The story is widely known within my circle of friends and acquaintances. I'm not going to sit here and suggest that I was gullible and that this guy made it up. And, he wasn't telling it to *just me.* There were others there, some who were in the same race. Believe me, he has no need to impress me, and would not get away with a big cock-and-bull story. He isn't just some stray cat that wandered in, you know.

You don't have to believe it, but do not expect me to sit here and say it was BS. It happened. I need no "graceful way out." I call BS on this little chicken-plucking episode, and suggest that it's the chicken-pluckers (also known as crow-pickers) who need a graceful way out.
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