Stupid question jamboree! Come one, come all!

[thirds]

Hi all!

I'm "thirds" and I'm new here and I have some stupid questions. Ok, they aren't stupid, but I got pounced on like crazy on another forum by a big meanie with a little weanie of a confidence problem. My questions cover lots of topics so they don't seem to fit anywhere else, and I needed to do an introduction, so.... let me say, you will know a man by his questions!

Also, feel free for anyone else to jump in with a stupid question! (and hopefully some kind souls will give answers.) If your answer is "RTFM" (read the forking manual) at least give a pointer to the manual or how to find it. I'm always happy to RTFM.

But, before the questions (I know, wordy SOB here, right?) let me do a quick intro:

I was not born with salt in my blood. My parents don't understand why I give a damn about boats, but I got a few experiences in boyscouts and then many years ago I bought an S2 9.2c Center Cockpit. I loved that boat. I still do! I miss it more than my ex-wife. Not kidding. Anyway, long story not short-- I'm an engineer, wanted to sail around the world, bought a boat, got married, discovered the woman who wanted to sail around the world with me didn't want to sail around the world, got rid of the boat, traveled around the world by airplane for many years, then she split and I'm like WTF.

So, it's about retiring time, I'm well traveled, and in a few years I'm planning to buy a boat, sail around the coastal US for a couple years, maybe do the great loop, then head off on that long delayed circumnavigation.

I have a lot of knowledge, but some gaps... hence the questions:


1. Why are holding tanks so tiny? Even on "bluewater offshore purebread cruising catamarans"... we're talking boats that come with three cabins and 2 or 3 heads and only .... 26 gallons of holding tankage? WTF? I want to say my little S2 had 30 gallons.

In fact, I just checed specs on two boats - Xquisite X5 and Maverick 440 series and both mention black water tanks, but never mention the size. Leopard 50: 45 gallons. Does that seem right to you for a charter boat that can come with up to 6 cabins? 12 people plus crew for a week? They're pumping out a couple times I think. Seems inefficient.

2. Do these builders expect we are going to be dumping blackwater overboard offshore? It looks like in Canada you need to be 3 miles offshore... When at the dock I had a tug that came by and pumped my tanks once a week whether they needed it or not. That's not a problem. I'm just thinking, if you take extended trips close to shore...like island hopping along the florida keys or San Juan Islands.

3. How much of your net worth is in your boat? Boats sure are expensive. The financial calculus is a lot different vs a house. Boats aren't investments. And a given boat is likely to lose %40 of its value in 5 years (or more). So, if you're looking at a new Leopard and you get a boat which barely does more than sail (Eg: no options) you're looking at $500k, or $250k depreciation over 5 years -- that's $50k a year! If you finance it for 20 years-- you're underwater.

4. Can you finance a boat for 20 years?

5. If you have good credit but have never bought anything that cost more than $40,000 how do you finance $400,000 (or whatever) purchase? Even if you have $400,000,000 in the bank, the bank doesn't know that.

Your credit report only shows your borrowing history, not your net worth. You can show them you have the total cost of the boat in cash-- they don't care!

I know this because when I bought my first boat, I had 5x the boat cost in cash, in the bank, and tried to finance the boat purchase, but had not made a purchase that large in the past. Tried to show them that I could buy the boat with cash and the didn't care. I bought the boat with cash (Even though I eventually returned far more in investment income on the rest of the cash than the interest they would have charged if they had given me a loan.)

6. What questions do you ask potential crew? As a single dude, unless I' partner up with somebody who wants to sail like I do, I think I'll be going to the "crew seeking" places and finding people to part time crew the boat on passages in exchange for passage. How to find someone who isn't going to fall asleep on watch? Got any good interview questions? If I were hiring engineers I'd be golden, but sailors?

7. How many crew do you think a 40-50 foot catamran would need for a crossing of the pacific? I'm thinking something reasonable-- looks like Panama to Galapgos then to Marquesas etc is the route (I'm sure I'm forgetting things there.) If I have a 3 cabin boat, I can't bring on 3 crew (eg: sleeping four) unless one of them is willing to sleep in the salon. (Maybe four is worth it though, with the off watch in the salon, and hot bunking the other two cabins?

8. My plan is to scale up trips over time- Day trips in Florida, then coastal multi day trips in Florida involving anchoring out, then longer passages, maybe up the east coast marina and anchorage hopping during the summer. Then a hop over to the Caribbean and progressively doing longer trips there. Then to Panama, thru the canal and into the wide blue yonder---- seems there's huge jump between Caribbean sailing and the hop from Panama to Galapagos. Is there a good trip I should do in there to get more experience?

9. I saw "gone with the Wynns" who had no sailing experience, took a couple week course and a couple trips to the carribean and then set off across the pacific. Seems.... lets see, the polite way of putting it.... seems they have a larger appetite for risk than I do. Am I being a nervous nelly? (all my previous experience has been relatively protected sound sailing near the coast.)

10. At what age do most people stop sailing. I don't mean the salts who are going to die on their boat at 104. But there's a lot of people who save up, sail in retirement for some number of years, and then retreat back to land because it gets too hard (I'm assuming).... and what age do you think most people (obviously it varies with fitness) start feeling the effort of sailing is too much? -and I'm talking reasonable people on multi-hull boats, not masochists on monohulls who get tired of living at a 45 degree angle!

At some point the stairs are probably going to bug me, or the sacrifices. So far in my life I've never had a problem being in a tiny space. I don't need much. But I don't think I'll be able to do it forever.

This relates to depreciation, and financing. I don't want to be still paying it off, and certainly not underwater when I'm done sailing. (Barring premature end to career due ot illness or injury.)

I'm generally planning on 10 years, maybe 20. But in 20 years I'll be 70 (guess how old I am!) .... maybe at that point I just become a marina queen and the boat my retirement home.

11. Do you really save money buying a used boat? Looking at 5 year old catamarans the market seems really screwy. A new Leopard 40 with no options is $380k but a 12 year old 2007 model is "only" $299. Priced out with options it looks like that 40 will be closer to $500k so maybe the used has a similar level of options... so it's down %40 in 10 years?! Seems like by biding my time I may get a panic seller of a 2-3 year old boat for %20-%30 when someone needs to raise cash to cover their margin calls. Dunno. The pricing just doesn't make sense right now.

12. Also, my first boat was 20 years old when I bought it. I hated how old it was. There was a lot of maintenance I had to take care of, and it was in generally good shape well taken care of... just the nature of boats. These things deteriorate at an accelerating rate it seems after 10 years or so. This also makes the pricing wonky.

Is this perception correct? A new water maker, engine or water heater is going to cost the same in a brand new boat as it will in replacing the old one in the old boat. And water heaters, at least, seem to not be worth a damn after 20 years for sure.

Looking at an industry article it seems in South Africa labor is %14 of the cost, overhead %17, materials %33 and most of the rest-- the largest expense-- is installed systems (engines, electronics, dishwasher, all that.) And those are bought from suppliers and installed when the boat is built.

Boat builders are really fiberglass hull & deck fabricators and furniture makers. Those are their key core competencies. The motors, sails, rigging, winches, appliances, mattresses, almost everything that isn't fiberglass or wood laminate they buy from suppliers.

So when you buy a 10 year old boat, all those appliances are near the end of their lives. The engines might be good for another 10-20 years but not without at least %20 of replacement cost being put into them in replacing worn out things.

The hull and deck should last forever, and a lot of the furniture too.... but when the depreciation levels off is also about the time that these supplier provided items start to fail and start being expensive.... I suspect the total cost of ownership of a boat is linear with age.

Anyone know of analysis on that question?

Is total cost of ownership of a boat linear with age?

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, thirds.

1. Holding tanks are so tiny because:
- they take up valuable space, that potential buyers don't value highly.
- coastal & inland sailors,who use them most, are assumed to often sail from marina to marina, mostly with pumpouts.

-

[LittleWing77]

Hiya Thirds and Welcome,

Yes, those are a LOT of questions! First off, it might be helpful to know that there are previous threads on most of the topics in each of your questions - from boat financing to crew selection (there's a really good recent one called something like "volunteer crew" ) and also cat vs monohull (editorial comment: isn't an S2 cc a monohull? Why would you swich to a cat if you don't need much space, you love the S2 and still miss it, and most of all, you're trying to be frugal about costs? Cats are astronomically expensive - just compare dockage and hauling fees, for comparison - and if you haven't been offshore in a cat, ensure that you do before you entertain buying one)

I would suggest that once you've had a chance to review the various subject threads (which will answer most of your questions) then start individual threads with only one topic. That way you'll be assured of getting lots of feedback from the Forum.

Good luck! And Fair Winds,
LittleWing

[boatman61]

Try one question at a time mate.. as someone pointed out in another thread this is a forum devoid of intelektooals and our brains hurt if we have to think to hard..

[denverd0n]

Well, I'll take a stab at some of these...

Originally Posted by thirds

1. Why are holding tanks so tiny?

Big tanks take up a lot of space. If you're coastal sailing then you're probably able to pump out regularly. If you're off-shore then you can dump it overboard. Bigger tanks would be nice sometimes, but it's a balancing act. You have to choose your trade-offs.

Originally Posted by thirds

3. How much of your net worth is in your boat?

How long is piece of string? Some people put everything they have into their boats, and others can buy a new 40' catamaran with pocket change.

Originally Posted by thirds

4. Can you finance a boat for 20 years?

Yes, you can. Though that doesn't mean you can finance ANY boat for 20 years. It will depend on the age and value of the boat, as well as the particular lender. That said, and relative to question #3 above, I would not buy a boat that I could not pay for without borrowing. That doesn't mean that I would never borrow to buy a boat. There are situations where borrowing can make sense, and I might choose that option, but if the boat was so expensive that I could not possibly buy it WITHOUT borrowing, then I would be looking for a cheaper boat.

Originally Posted by thirds

5. If you have good credit but have never bought anything that cost more than $40,000 how do you finance $400,000 (or whatever) purchase? Even if you have $400,000,000 in the bank, the bank doesn't know that.

They will if you tell them. In this situation, you don't take out a loan with the boat as collateral. That is, you don't get a "boat loan." Rather you get a "personal loan," with your earnings/net worth as the collateral, and then spend it on whatever you want (a boat, perhaps?).

Originally Posted by thirds

6. What questions do you ask potential crew?

Never took on crew that I didn't already know, so I'm not a good one to ask. There are, however, a number of discussions of this in other threads. I think a search would turn up a boatload of reading material.

Originally Posted by thirds

7. How many crew do you think a 40-50 foot catamran would need for a crossing of the pacific?

Another "how long is a piece of string?" kind of question. It's been done single-handed. So, maybe none. It really depends on the skill and dedication of the crew, the skipper, how the boat has been prepared, and probably a dozen other variables that I haven't thought of.

Originally Posted by thirds

9. Am I being a nervous nelly?

When you're ready, you won't have to ask. You'll know. For now you can just forget about this.

Originally Posted by thirds

10. At what age do most people stop sailing.

Another "piece of string" question. Some stop relatively young. Others start quite old. It all depends on you and your health. I would also add that I think a lot of people do not stop because their health dictates it. I think a lot do some cruising after retirement because they always wanted to. They do it. They like it. They check it off of their bucket list. Then they move on to other things. Not because they MUST, but because they want to.

Originally Posted by thirds

11. Do you really save money buying a used boat?

Yes, you really do. There are trade-offs to buying used, but the big advantage is you let someone else suffer the majority of the depreciation.

Originally Posted by thirds

12... Is total cost of ownership of a boat linear with age?

No. It's really a lot like cars. There is a dramatic drop-off during the first few years as it goes from "new" to "used." Then it hits a point were it does become pretty linear. Eventually it gets to a point where it is pretty flat as its condition, and the maintenance it has gotten up to that point, determines the on-going costs.

Hope all this helps. I'm sure someone will come along to disagree with virtually everything that I've said. That's just the nature of these kinds of discussions. So take it as my opinion, and good luck!

[jimglasair3]

Thirds... you have analysis paralysis.

A little too much engineering on the cost of boats, perhaps? I tried too...

Sounds like you are looking hard at a catamaran... the most desired cats are about 5 years old, owner's versions that have not chartered, commanding a large premium...almost to the point of the cost of a new boat. I ordered a new cat, so I could get it the way I want, but literally paid more for the options than I did the boat...so it also depends on how your new or gently used boat is equipped. The penalty of ordering a new boat is that you also get to wait 1 1/2 to 2 years to get it...

Many of the cats are set up to be sailed by a couple, but if your intent is to cross oceans, as mine is, then plan to take on more crew to help with the watch keeping. Some of the 40 ft cats might be single handed, depends on your experience and technique..think reefing as the seas pick up, and of course, picking up a mooring ball - kinda tough to do alone unless you are quite clever (it can be done).

Gone with the Wynns... I like their channel and support them. The thought of buying a cat, then learning to sail, then crossing the pacific still took them quite a bit of time, sailing full time. You learn your limits rather quickly. They also have immense pressure to produce interesting videos that keep viewers watching. They would loose viewers quickly if they took more time to shake down themselves as sailors. If you sail as much as they do, you also might be ready for a pacific crossing in almost two years.

I am a single man as well...and my thought is that it would be better to find the right companion to be with; over looking for someone to just sail with... I actually talked my ex-wife into sailing with me on the boat. That makes it easier for our grown kids to come enjoy the boat too. We have a clear understanding that if she doesn't like it, she can leave at the next port, no questions. So I have been working on making it fun for her too.

I hear friends you didn't know you have suddenly want to go out with you when they hear you have a boat! Several threads on the wisdom/challenges of that topic!

Like airplanes, you can never justify the finances of a boat. It costs. Then it costs more. It will cost more than you plan, no matter how good your plan. Like Nike... Just Do It.

Sounds like you might be in Florida... should be lots of boat/crew/sailing opportunities near by!

Good luck!

[JPA Cate]

When you buy a new boat you have all the costs of commissioning it. When you buy a 2-5 yr. old boat, the previous owner has stood all the commissioning costs, plus the first few years' depreciation. We have never bought a new boat.

If you're planning on taking on crew, take a look at this link to a crew agreement: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-159768-4.html Taking on unknown crew is just as dangerous as it is for crew to accept an unknown captain. We have only once taken crew, and he was a family friend, so a very different situation, where we knew him to be good crew, so it was a natural fit, someone we could trust to stay awake on watch, as you suggested. You have to observe them, to see if they are okay. There are things you can do to keep awake, and you can train yourself, but just your average Joe or Jane Doakes may not have the skills.

Ann

[thirds]

First off, thanks for the answers.

Wow, I really dumped my brain out here... that was an epic first post.

I don't have analysis paralysis! I have just started researching, I don't plan to buy for a couple years, and so there's no rush to pull the trigger -- and no question that I won't pull the trigger due to fear or some paralysis... when I can learn from experience, I do, and I'll be doing that soon-- going to Miami and I'm going to see a lot of boats in person. But when I am stuck in a landlocked state for awhile, I research online.

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Yes, those are a LOT of questions! First off, it might be helpful to know that there are previous threads on most of the topics in each of your questions - from boat financing to crew selection (there's a really good recent one called something like "volunteer crew" ) and also cat vs monohull (editorial comment: isn't an S2 cc a monohull? Why would you swich to a cat if you don't need much space, you love the S2 and still miss it, and most of all, you're trying to be frugal about costs?

It's common on forums to think "We've talked about this before", but it's not as accurate as you think. I will go to the threads people recommend and even asked for such citations-- but forum search software is not very good, and most threads are usually more specific or more general or not about the exact question that's being asked.

I don't need or care to debate monohull vs multihull. I did own a monohull, and I raced multihulls, and I did well in physics, so the choice is clear!

Who said I'm trying to be frugal? I'm not. Just smart with the money.

Originally Posted by boatman61

Try one question at a time mate.. as someone pointed out in another thread this is a forum devoid of intelektooals and our brains hurt if we have to think to hard..

Yeah, and to think I was thinking this would be a thread where everyone might jump in and ask questions too, like a "Safe space" for potentially "stupid" questions.

But you're right.

Originally Posted by denverd0n

I would not buy a boat that I could not pay for without borrowing. That doesn't mean that I would never borrow to buy a boat.

Agreed completely. And that's the situation I'm in, but it makes sense to borrow because my investment ROI dwarfs current loan costs. So I'll finance %100 of the boat if I can on the longest term loan I can get, even though I will have at minimum %400 of the value of the boats in net worth.

I'm just trying to figure out if %400 is irresponsible or if I should be looking for 1/10th of my net worth. I know there are people who full time on boats (like I will) who have a negative net worth and the boat is their biggest asset... just trying to get peoples thoughts if there is a personal rule of thumb that is common.

When I bought my sailboat for around $36k I had a net worth of something like $150k.

Originally Posted by denverd0n

They will if you tell them. In this situation, you don't take out a loan with the boat as collateral. That is, you don't get a "boat loan." Rather you get a "personal loan," with your earnings/net worth as the collateral, and then spend it on whatever you want (a boat, perhaps?).

I'm perplexed why you say this. A boat is a physical asset and its much easier to attach than encumbered or restricted assets. They can repo a boat for a lot cheaper than a court fight. So I would think that a boat would be a cheaper and easier collateral for a loan.

OH, I get it, for most people that other collateral is a house, or houses.

Originally Posted by denverd0n

When you're ready, you won't have to ask. You'll know. For now you can just forget about this.

Ha! Yes, that's absolutely true. I know I'm not ready. And I'm not going to take anything anyone says as gospel. I have a way of taking lots of opinions, facts and signals and integrating them into a pretty consistent and accurate view of reality, mostly. When I'm there, I'm not going to be asking any questions.

But at this point, 80 people giving me different answers with different reasoning would all be useful for a lot of these judgement call questions.

Originally Posted by denverd0n

No. It's really a lot like cars. There is a dramatic drop-off during the first few years as it goes from "new" to "used." Then it hits a point were it does become pretty linear. Eventually it gets to a point where it is pretty flat as its condition, and the maintenance it has gotten up to that point, determines the on-going costs.

That's certainly the conventional wisdom, and also my belief previously to recent research.

However, I'm starting to question it on two points, the first being that for the kind of boats I'm buying there isn't enough volume for the curve to be like it is for 30 foot fiberglass monohulls, of which there are thousands upon thousands built in the past 40 years.

The second point is that I may value spending money on depreciation than spending money on the downtime of repair and the like (of course new boats have shakedown issues, but I'm assuming they will be less than what I experienced with a 20 year old boat that despite being well taken care of was a continuous cascade of maintenance that really cut into enjoyment.)

Of course all this depends on shifts in political and economic winds and the like. Strife in SA where %30 of cats are built could drive up prices dramatically, a new luxury tax in the USA could have negative impacts, or a decline in oil prices due to the adoption of electric vehicles could cut production costs for fiberglass boats, etc.

But it seems right now, for South African cats, given their current labor costs and the breakdown of costs, that buying new is not more expensive than buying used.

That's a very specific analysis I'm making, vs the common perception based on 40 years of 30 foot (on average) monohulls where the hulls last forever. (and so the cost curve means a 5 year old hunter isn't as different from a 20 year old hunter.)

Anyway thinking outloud. Thanks for the responses!

[thirds]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

When you buy a new boat you have all the costs of commissioning it. When you buy a 2-5 yr. old boat, the previous owner has stood all the commissioning costs, plus the first few years' depreciation.

I didn't get this comment at first, but now I realize you're talking about delivery costs (which can be $50k on a big cat) and fenders and all the linens and things like that. Not sure what other commissioning costs there would be, though.

Looking at the boats I'm interested in, 2-5 year boats seem to have asking prices near the new prices. Its very hard to account for all the options on them or left off, given the scant info in many listings.... so this is rough figures. This is probably due to there being not a lot of these boats on teh market.

I read that the industry average is a new boat depreciates %40 in 4 years, roughly. But I'm not seeing that on 40-50 foot catamarans. (that haven't been in charter.)

One option might be to go full on depreciated and buy a 5-6 year old ex-charter cat. They will often have had systems replaced and consistent maintenance, but may be in enough supply ot have depressed the price / depreciated.

[thirds]

Originally Posted by jimglasair3

Thirds... you have analysis paralysis.
A little too much engineering on the cost of boats, perhaps? I tried too...

It worked before. I knew the pricing and value and market back and forth when I bought my first boat. And because of this, I was able to move fast, make precise offers and not worry that I was screwing up. Knowing the market prevents FOMO and being tricked or manipulated into paying much. And I'm not worried about failing to buy- if I don't buy it will be because the situation doesn't merit it (eg: I find something I'd rather do or find a better solution.)

Originally Posted by jimglasair3

Some of the 40 ft cats might be single handed, depends on your experience and technique..think reefing as the seas pick up, and of course, picking up a mooring ball - kinda tough to do alone unless you are quite clever (it can be done).

I'm keen on a boat that can be single handed simply because that's safer. If there are three crew and one crew is injured and the other is exhausted, then the one remaining one should be able to do everything significantly needed during their watch.

In reading disaster reports, it's often a cascading series of failures that make for tragedy- X happens which puts stress on everything and everyone else, causing another system to fail or a person to make a mistake.

So, singlehandability is really important even if you never plan to be single handed.

Originally Posted by jimglasair3

Like airplanes, you can never justify the finances of a boat. It costs. Then it costs more. It will cost more than you plan, no matter how good your plan. Like Nike... Just Do It.

Absolutely, and it only gets close to financial sense if you full time or it's retirement and you're blowing money to justify slaving away in a cubicle for 40 years.

But finances are a bit like water speed, you lose your ability to maneuver if you don't have good flow.

[LittleWing77]

Well glad you did well in physics - and best of luck with your 12+ stupid questions.

Oh - and delivery costs are *not* commissioning costs, so you'd best add that to your list as well.

LittleWing

[Jim Cate]

My opinion: in general, you are worrying too much about the poorly predictable fiscal aspects of boat ownership and cruising, and not enough about the boat itself. Cruising boats are not just a hull and rig plus "options". There are far more important considerations like sea keeping abilities, performance, livability... all the things that we on CF spend most of our time debating.

There are so many variables in value maintenance in yachts that it is essentially impossible to predict what a given yacht will be worth in x years. In your place I'd be concerned with identifying the marque and model that I want to buy based on objective criteria, and only then make the decision about financing it. It will in any case depreciate substantially... you will pay for your pleasure in cruising no matter what clever fiscal ploys you use. If you worry too much about the magnitude of the cost, you'll loose much of the pleasure, and that wrecks the pleasure:cost metric!

As to the fraction of net worth that you should apply, well my take is that you should consider the total loss of your boat...zero value at some point (like an uninsured loss at sea). I'm comfortable if there is enough retained wealth to see me out through my remaining years. That number will be vastly different between individuals, and it is kinda silly to ask strangers what theirs is. Only you know!

An aside: my observation is that we on CF are pretty good at technical advice. Once we stray into more subjective areas the value of our ruminations is questionable.

Jim

[JPA Cate]

Thirds, you mentioned CF's search software is lacking. I have felt that way, too. However, I may be able to explain a little.... The search engine that comes up when you click on the search menu is (a)case sensitive, and all it is is a word match. It is okay for searching, for instance on passerelles. But, if you go down the menu a bit, you will come to the CF Custom Google search, and it is the one which you would use to look for general ideas. In addition, if you click on a person's avatar whose posts you like, you can look at other posts by that person. The CF Custom Google Search operates like any Google search, and you may find it to be a lot more user friendly. The former search would lead to posts about passerelles; the latter would also give you lots of images and sources.

Commissioning a boat is getting it ready to go to sea. It covers your anchor choices (usually inadequate anchors come with new boats). I realize this sounds pretty sweeping, and I do mean inadequate for international passage making and anchoring situations:
the rest of the world is not like the U.S. Wise consumers will have their brand new factory fresh boat surveyed to learn what needs changing, BEFORE ACCEPTING DELIVERY OF IT. The rig should be included, because sometimes the boat really needs a wire upgrade. I guess what I'm saying is a warning to a naive purchaser to really cover your bases.

Ann

[Steve Bean]

Composting heads don't need big wet holding tanks. Why add water to your waste?

[thirds]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Thirds, you mentioned CF's search software is lacking.
Commissioning a boat is getting it ready to go to sea. It covers your anchor choices (usually inadequate anchors come with new boats).

Wise consumers will have their brand new factory fresh boat surveyed to learn what needs changing, BEFORE ACCEPTING DELIVERY OF IT. The rig should be included, because sometimes the boat really needs a wire upgrade. I guess what I'm saying is a warning to a naive purchaser to really cover your bases.

First off, I hope what I said didn't seem like a condemnation of the sites search, it's actually an extremely difficult problem to solve. I meant more to the point that there are lots of threads about, say anchors, but that doesn't mean they actually addressed a particular question about a particular anchor, though the users who see that question will be highly likely to feel like it's been discussed at length already and thus annoying to bring it up. I often use google to search anyway with the "site:whatever.com/" tag to search a specific site when a forum doesn't have it integrated.

Glad you brought up anchors, in fact, as I understood that type of stuff would be necessary parts of commissioning, and have been assuming I'll have to do a through assessment of the complete ground tackle system for any boat I buy.

Ground tackle, safety gear, fenders, lines, rigging, sails, solar capacity, dingy, are all areas where I expect I'll have to do immediate projects or upgrades even if I were to buy a new boat. Probably more I'm not thinking about.

When I bought my boat before, I got one surveyor who analyzed the hull, the engine, and the rigging (But he didn't go up the mast, that was one stickler I wanted but wasn't able to get done.)

I hear others talk about separate surveyors for engine and rest of boat. But if I'm buying something over $100k it seems maybe three Surveyors- one for rigging, one for hull and systems and one for engines?

Not sure if that's overkill.

Originally Posted by Steve Bean

Composting heads don't need big wet holding tanks. Why add water to your waste?

Holy tiny holding tanks that you have to stir yourself batman! Seriously, though toilets are highly personal, stinky topics and people all have their own opinions... and I don't like holding tanks either.