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Old 21-01-2016, 06:31   #46
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

i learned that even when asked specifically what medications are being taken regularly and what diagnosed conditions are experienced by the potential crew, the potential crew tells me false hoods to become crew. i have discharged heart conditions and psychiatric conditions and a post operative narcissistic bariatric surgery person for obesity. she ate me out of house and home.
the worst as a schzophrenic with the 20 voices telling him to sink my ship and destroy me. was a lot of "fun" for 6 months until his detrimental activity was witnessed, so i could fire his volunteer ass. remember i am out of country so i cannot just kick his nasty self to curb.
i am still repairing after that schizophrenic's detrimental actions.
i had been let go from a cutter i sailed in caribbe, without advanced warning nor consideration for transportation. i was aided back to my home by others i didnt know.
there were opportunities to crew on other boats, but not in my area.
ok. so i went home.
i make a point of not discharging my voluntary alleged crew into places they do not have transportation out from, and i make sure they donot have feet on which to call me a jones act violator. despite the fact he told me he had ticket home, he lied.
one cannot presume the potential crew to be honest. following instructions is important, as is potential personality conflict.

there are folks who donot get along together in small places. i would not inflict me on them nor vice versa.
medical issues are most important in choosing crew--if there are potentials for disaster, health be one, as well as boat condition.
not only is skipper seeking crew, but crew is also vetting skipper. it goes both ways.
i will not leave port until i am convinced that the crew member to be is a good fit. i will even stay in port 6 months for viewing activities and behaviors.
if you smoke--bye bye., there are allergies on board, understand smoking is a negative factor. you may not be welcome with that bad habit or drinking to excess.
i observe closely when i have someone requesting to be crew.
inability to board from a kayak or dinghy is a factor, following instructions is a factor, smoking is a factor. eating habits may also be a factor. following instructions is most important factor.
i do share the sail-- each must contribute. you in my home expecting a free ride--aint happening. btdt with crew--i aint the support or keep of anyone but me n gato.
anything feels strange--i also go by gut feeling on the individual. that could have been a problem. in this case, it isnt you, it is the chooser of the crew.
someone puts out the dough to get to my boat to sail with me, i will give all opportunities i am able to find. i sent a seasick crew to my family by choice to sail schooner, when he could not do the roll my boat did down hill on our first passage in this ketch. had i had a line out trolling, i'd-a caught many fishies.....
so many considerations to explore in taking someone strange to ye off the coast in a small sardine can.
each rejection is an open door for new experiences. have a great time, i am sure ye will find a decent boat and skipper to sail with.
keep looking, but next time, make sure they pay your way if that is part of the deal. make the deal first, then do the rest. make deal in writing, even if it is in chat--save all chats. save all communications with the potential skipper.
who knows, the dream deal may just be named the minnow and tour be only 3 hours......you also must vet the owner and boat.
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Old 21-01-2016, 06:56   #47
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Don't know about a 'Kangaroo Court'..
A question was posed.. opinions were passed.. more info came to light so some skippers have passed an opinion on what their attitudes are.
Myself.. I have sailed with owners crews and some I have taken on after being asked.. alki's, mild cold turkeying, epileptic.. that's a scarey surprise.
Now I sail only with people I know.. personally.. once weather kicks in a boat gets really small and having to share it with someone I either dislike or distrust just lays more stress on my back..
Oh I can do it easy enough if forced to, but.. I'd rather not have too...

PS; I find buying return tickets with a 7 day turnaround fun.. if it turns to ***** you at least get a holiday.. tho' in my last case.. 7 days in a NJ motel was definitely NOT Disneyworld..
Pot... This is kettle...

Over...

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Old 21-01-2016, 07:06   #48
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
Pot... This is kettle...

Over...

Why dya think folk say it takes at least 3 days to settle at sea before it gets enjoyable..
That's when the Detox has kicked in...
What happens ashore stays ashore...
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Old 21-01-2016, 07:49   #49
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Originally Posted by DreaminFred View Post

What are his obligations to me in this situation?
Leaving out the ethical and moral potions of the original post scenario, which is a 2 way street:

It seems to me that unless you have something in writing or a way to establish an oral agreement, there is no obligation.

I've read of similar stories here when the free crew that spent a lot of money to come to someone's boat have a few hours of delay due to a airline flight. Only to show up and find that boat had left already.

I don't really understand why a person would spent their own money to go be crew without an written agreement in place with someone they don't know. And even then since the chance of enforcing that agreement on a cruiser who could be anywhere afterward seems like you will never get it enforced without it costing you more than it worth.
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Old 21-01-2016, 08:08   #50
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

[QUOTE=valhalla360;2022843]I know neither the OP or the Captain from a bar of soap (that's a wierd turn of phrase, never heard before)...



You just never met my Mom. It's an old phrase used back in the time when people felt a more genteel phrase was more appropriate to get their point across than what passes for turns of phrase today.

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Old 21-01-2016, 08:29   #51
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Never invest more than you are willing to lose.

What is a skipper's obligation to a voluntary crew and vice a versa?
Basically nothing unless you have $50,000 to take them to court - where you will probably lose or get an unenforceable judgement.

Even as a Captain of a ship where the company had a full time crewing service that was supposed to fully vet on coming personal, you wouldn't believe what I could end up with.

If you don't know each other before hand, don't take them on.

If you don't know how to get your boat from A to B by yourself, you shouldn't be out sailing and looking for free crew.

If a skipper wants a "volunteer crew member" to become in effect their slave for "sailing experience", just remember you get what you pay for.

Just sort of the way it is............

But I do think that you were probably wronged, just not much you can do about it.
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Old 21-01-2016, 08:32   #52
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

This was a commercial charter business, right?

The answer to your question is that you are entitled to whatever you clearly agreed on in advance, preferably in writing (we lawyers like to say that "oral contracts are not worth the paper they're written on" , although that's not entirely true).

Nevertheless, I think it's unbelievable that he would throw you off the trip after you already flew out. He must have had some strong reason. Even with a strong, objective reason (like, you only have one arm, and he specifically needs a deck hand), I think the right thing to do would have been to fully reimburse your travel - provided of course that he threw you off for a reason you weren't concealing from him.

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Old 21-01-2016, 08:47   #53
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What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Sounds like you had a Lesson learned: communicate every *possible* issue to the skipper before you invest a dime. If he says no problem but later changed his mind then you would have a beef but if he didn't know the issue until you showed up, and it's something you've had for decades and sounds significant....it sounds like you were putting the squeeze on the skipper and you were lucky he was kind enough to give you some money.


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Old 21-01-2016, 08:53   #54
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

So what was this medical issue that got you kicked of the boat?
Seem to be instrumental to this discussion and should be disclosed.
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Old 21-01-2016, 09:00   #55
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What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Here's something that might help others in similar situations. Anyone sailing on board with us is informed they will be required to agree to the terms before departure. Along with some other information it is emailed to potential crew before any agreements are in place. Friends and family are also required to agree to these terms. This process should have resolved the OPs problem we'll beforehand. Feel free to cut/paste/edit for your own use. ( legal disclaimer : this form may or may not be legal in your particular location or situation. Seeking legal advice for your particular situation is advised )



CREW AGREEMENT SV SEPHINA

YACHT: Sephina (here after referred to as "the Yacht")

VOYAGE FROM: ______________________________

TO: _________________________________

INTENTIONS:
This agreement is designed to anticipate problems that might occur while aboard, both at sea or coastal cruising, and thus, avoid them. It is designed to protect both the skipper/owner and those who join him. To facilitate inquiries, should anything go wrong, a copy will be sent to the skipper's representative before departure; and I suggest that you send a copy to someone you deem appropriate. It is wise to inform someone at home of your plans.

Crewing on Sephina works best when all are considered equals. You will be consulted, when appropriate, as a part of decision making, but you must be also willing to share all work, difficulties and dangers. In completing this agreement YOU TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR DECISION TO JOIN, and agree that you are willing to accept all that may come your way. There have been no inducements or promises or consideration that is not fully described in this agreement.

The skipper hereby declares his belief that the boat is properly equipped and prepared for the planned voyage, and that he is fully competent to manage, alone or with crew. He invites the crew to test this statement in any way they wish - by their own inquiries and judgement, or with the help of others. When you sign this you agree that you have full investigated and found that the boat is properly equipped and that the skipper is capable, fit and competent. You understand and agree that I am the captain and you must obey all lawful orders.

MEDICAL DETAILS:
The boat has a well equipped medical kit, and a powerful radio with which emergency help may be obtained. However, you must take full responsibility for any current or past medical conditions that may recur, or any medical or health problems that may occur during or as a result of this trip. Make sure that you have ample medication for at least twice as long as the expected passage. You must inform the skipper of any potentially serious conditions that could affect safety at sea. Give details below of any known drug allergies, conditions that might recur, and current medication(s):

(mark "NONE" if none)_____________________________________________

Medical insurance may help save your life.

List details of your medical insurance, if any and all contact details:


Apart from spoiling your trip and making it harder for others aboard, seasickness can be dangerous, even fatal. Unless you know, from extensive experience, that you will not be affected, you must have, and be willing to use, reputable seasickness treatment. This is your responsibility.

_________ (initials, crew) ___________ (Initials, skipper)

PASSPORTS, VISAS AND REPATRIATION:
When you enter another country you may need to have a passport and visa, and be able to prove you can get yourself out of the country (other than by yacht) to another country to which you have full right of entry. The simplest way is to have an air ticket, or to carry sufficient cash to cover one. Credit cards are of no use in some countries. You are responsible for this and you understand that you may be asked to furnish proof to the skipper on boarding, and deposit with him your passport, air ticket or cash in lieu.

TRIP INTERRUPTION:
You understand that should you leave the yacht, for whatever reason, at a port other than that to which you had agreed in this agreement, you will be responsible for all your own travel and related costs. You also understand and agree that if you are asked to leave the yacht for reasons of lack of competence, inappropriate behaviour, crew incompatibility, illness, or the inability to carry out required tasks, which, in skipper's opinion, is endangering the safe operation of the yacht, you will also be responsible for all your own repatriation costs. However, in this event, the Skipper will take all reasonable measures to disembark you at a suitable port along the intended route, from which you can arrange your travel home.

MAINTENANCE WORK:
Keeping a cruising boat in safe condition requires work on repairs and maintenance , and this is an obligation to be shared by all aboard. Good crew looks for ways to help, and taking part will make you feel involved. As a guide you should be willing to put in about a half an hour a day, plus half a day per week, on maintenance or and repair to the boat. This does not include domestic work, in which you will also be required to share.

COST:
You may be required to contribute a daily amount to cover your cost aboard. To help avoid disagreements, all arrangements and all transactions must be recorded, at the time they are made, in this document initialled by both parties. You agree that at any monies you pay toward your own costs is not for any charter fee or passenger fee for the benefit of the boat or its owner or the skipper, but only for your own costs.

Costs per day: (no greater than) $__________________ initial_______

CREW DETAILS:

Name______________________________________________ ______

Address___________________________________________ _______

Passport Country/Number____________________________________
Passport Place and date of issue_______________________________
Passport expiry date_________________________________________

Contact Phone_____________________________________________

(Provide two (2) copies of the issue page(s) of your passport, and provide information from the passport: number, issue place , date of issue, expiration date, home address; and next of kin's full name, address and telephone number and an alternative contact.)
(initials, crew) ___________ (Initials, skipper) ___________

DECLARATIONS
I have completed the above details fully and honestly, and have volunteered any further information I am aware of that may affect the safe enjoyment of the proposed voyage by all aboard. I do not have any illegal drugs or weapons in my possession, and will immediately inform the skipper if I become aware of any on board, or anyone trying to bring such items aboard. I declare, by written statement on this agreement, details of any convictions, in any country, for the involvement with illegal drugs or weapons. I will not carry any packages for any third party on the boat without first requesting permission from the skipper. I accept that the skipper may change his plans, and will not hold him responsible for transportation to the original destination, should that not be reached by Sephina

I will make myself familiar with the location and operation of all safety equipment aboard the boat. I will seek to learn all aspects of seamanship by reading appropriate manuals and book aboard, and by asking help from the skipper and others. The responsibility is fully mine to learn and to ask to be taught any skills that I need for safe operation of the boat. If there is anything happening aboard the boat about which I am uncomfortable, I will discuss it with those concerned as soon as possible in order to avoid irreversible resentments that may spoil the atmosphere for all aboard. If the skipper is held responsible for bailing me out of trouble if I transgress local laws and customs, I agree to fully reimburse any cost incurred; and to compensate him for the time lost for every day of delay my action may cause. I take full responsibility for any requirements and cost relating for my entry and exit in countries to be visited by the boat. I agree to share all work aboard, and obey all orders given to me relating to the safe conduct of the boat, at all times.

I am aware that there are risks that I will face in this voyage, and take full responsibility for my decision to join the crew.

I, or my heirs, next of kin, legal representatives, successors and assigns, and in consideration of the acceptance as a crew member of the yacht, do hereby waive any and all claims which I may have against Robert Monteith or any other duly qualified and authorized captain appointed by him, arising out of, or in any way connected with, my participation as a members of the crew of the yacht, and understand and agree that, as a member of the crew of said yacht, I have no recourse or claims of any kind against Robert Monteith and shall hold him harmless against all consequences of my participation as a crew member aboard the yacht.


Crew member:________________________


Skipper:____________________________


Date:
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Old 21-01-2016, 09:00   #56
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Not so sure about the "welshing" out of the deal -- health is a serious concern, and not missing a day of work on land is not the same as going off-shore on a boat, especially not when someone else is responsible for that ship & trip ...

Did you guys discuss this issue before you started investing and flew to the boat, or did he only learn about it after you arrived? Cos it sounds like he didn't know before you got there, and you only told him because he asked the right question.
He should have asked ALL of his questions before the crew member flew out. Maybe that's what is pissing him off. It would certainly make me angry, especially if the "health issue" has no effect on his ability to crew.
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Old 21-01-2016, 09:02   #57
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pirate Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

My crew get their fares paid to the boat.. and all the way back home on completion.. plus food etc.. all they need is private spending money.. that's the deal.
But..!! If they choose to get off once the trips underway.. its on their $$.
But as I said.. I stick to folk I know personally..
A good internet/phone relationship does not automatically translate to face to face.. for a variety of reasons.
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Old 21-01-2016, 09:06   #58
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
Sounds like you had a Lesson learned: communicate every *possible* issue to the skipper before you invest a dime. If he says no problem but later changed his mind then you would have a beef but if he didn't know the issue until you showed up, and it's something you've had for decades and sounds significant....it sounds like you were putting the squeeze on the skipper and you were lucky he was kind enough to give you some money.
Yep. If ANY health issue is not discussed before hand I would feel like you were avoiding truth. In small places even more than the rest of life trusting that you don't need to dig for the truth is one of the main things in relationships......
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Old 21-01-2016, 09:06   #59
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

I do not think there is any obligation unless clearly stated so in any written (or spoken, if witnessed) declaration.

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Old 21-01-2016, 09:19   #60
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

I've taken on crew sight-unseen, and I'm not sure if I'd do it again. Some of my best crew have been sailing hitch-hikers (guy dinghied up to our boat and asked where we were heading) who I didn't know until 2 minutes before getting underway.

The decision to set sail on a particular boat, on a particular day/tide/time, with a particular weather forecast, with a particular crew is just one of the many decisions a skipper makes. As in the many other decisions we make, sometimes we have to go with our gut -- an amalgamation of our experiences. I cannot say what the OP's skipper perceived, but I can say it is clearly his call regarding who his crew is.

The question of financial responsibility is not, to me, black and white. Each party has some responsibility in the OP not joining the crew. I think the skipper offering to pay part of the cost was very reasonable and proper. Whether the right number is 25% or 50% or 10% I cannot say.
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