Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by daletournier

As much as I like decentralized it comes with it's own set of problems ie you are 100% responsible, forget your key? is the average person able to or willing to be 100% responsible?

This is the fatal flaw. With a limit on the total number of bitcoin, every one that is lost, is lost forever...and security is all on you.

If you farm out security to a 3rd party, you will pay for it...kind of like you already do for banks.

Recently there was a story of a supposedly high tech, really in the know guy, who stored his access codes on a portable harddrive...he lost the password to the harddrive. Problem is this harddrive is set up with an extra layer of protection that after too many incorrect password attempts, the harddrive deletes the contents....He has something like $250mil on the harddrive.

Now imagine grandpa is getting a bit of dementia and has his retirement nest egg in bitcoin on a harddrive...he doesn't even remember he has a harddrive, let alone what the password is.

Long story short, bitcoins will continue to be lost. Current estimates are around 25% have been lost. They will continue to be lost and that will drive deflation. No currency has ever been built around a purposely deflationary currency.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I’m not sure if you recognize the downside risk of fiat currencies vs gold, silver and cryptocurrency which are all based on a limited supply commodity.

Gold and silver are not used as currencies in the modern world...except maybe in a mining town. Of course, the miners typically get taken to the cleaners by the dealers buying it. Also, there is not a cap on the supply. You can always go dig up more.

More importantly, they have uses outside currency which provides a base level of value. Bitcoin has no such underlying use.

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by dfelsent

Be careful about the “market” exchange rates. The banks have to make money somewhere. It’s usually on the rate.
How does the banks actual rate (fine print!) stack up against actual revolut or transferwise rates on a particular day?

My research has said not well. Your mileage may vary.

There are many definitions of exchange rate.
Mid. Ask. Bid. High. low. Mid plus markup. For the day. At the moment. Currency Forwards? And so on.

USAA does not charge a fee at foreign ATMs and uses "mid" exchange rate. Availability limited, though, to current or former US DoD members and their families.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Gold coins do have a value. I’m no gold bug, but if you have small gold coins in say, St Lucia, as I linked to above, you can find the local gold buyer and sell them for local currency.

Part of the lure of considering portable wealth commodities is the removal of stress.

The banking and financial system are a large part of the stress in life. Always ripping you off to some extent, turning off your card, putting holds on your money, allowing for other people and governments to take your money, watching it ride the roller coaster of the market, making you spend countless hours of your life talking to customer service.

This alternative way would remove all of that and probably let you live longer from reduced stress. You’d definitely get all those hours of your life back from customer service hell.

On the contrary, you will lose many more hours of your life trying to mess with gold, its fluctuations in value, converting it every time to pay for something, having an account where to keep it, or even worse carrying it around with you with risk of losing it or getting it stolen, then selling the physical gold every time you need to buy something -- ugh! That is 10x more stress, not less stress, than making peace with some financial institution (like TransferWise or Revolut or whatever) which plugs into the financial system which, like it or not, everyone we deal with every day uses. There is no escape from the financial system -- the world runs on it.


If you're worried about inflation (say) and think having some of your savings in gold is a hedge against that, then, by all means, buy some gold (preferably electronic gold), as an investment. But if you try to mix it up with your day to day transactions you will really make a mess out of your life.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

This is the fatal flaw. With a limit on the total number of bitcoin, every one that is lost, is lost forever...and security is all on you.

If you farm out security to a 3rd party, you will pay for it...kind of like you already do for banks.

Recently there was a story of a supposedly high tech, really in the know guy, who stored his access codes on a portable harddrive...he lost the password to the harddrive. Problem is this harddrive is set up with an extra layer of protection that after too many incorrect password attempts, the harddrive deletes the contents....He has something like $250mil on the harddrive.

Now imagine grandpa is getting a bit of dementia and has his retirement nest egg in bitcoin on a harddrive...he doesn't even remember he has a harddrive, let alone what the password is.

Long story short, bitcoins will continue to be lost. Current estimates are around 25% have been lost. They will continue to be lost and that will drive deflation. No currency has ever been built around a purposely deflationary currency.

What is a possible game changer is the emergence of Bitcoin ETF's, one just started on the Canadian exchange and there will be an Australian one soon. Im fairly certain that's why Bitcoin critics like Mark Cuban and Kevin O Leary have changed their views.

ETFs solve the custodian responsibility issue BUT once again it suggests it's not a currency but more a speculative asset that has no function other than bring a speculative asset.

Voltaire? said all money eventually returns to its intrinsic value (or something like that) ...what's Bitcoins intrinsic value?

[Chotu]

That’s how you’d do it???

Why?

I’d go once, when I arrive in a country and get a month's worth of cash from selling a piece of gold.

That’s it. They don’t make reputable gold small enough to try to sell for every dozen eggs you buy. That would be nuts. You’d get about $1700 a trip and do it maybe once a month, if that.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

On the contrary, you will lose many more hours of your life trying to mess with gold, its fluctuations in value, converting it every time to pay for something, having an account where to keep it, or even worse carrying it around with you with risk of losing it or getting it stolen, then selling the physical gold every time you need to buy something -- ugh! That is 10x more stress, not less stress, than making peace with some financial institution (like TransferWise or Revolut or whatever) which plugs into the financial system which, like it or not, everyone we deal with every day uses. There is no escape from the financial system -- the world runs on it.


If you're worried about inflation (say) and think having some of your savings in gold is a hedge against that, then, by all means, buy some gold (preferably electronic gold), as an investment. But if you try to mix it up with your day to day transactions you will really make a mess out of your life.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by daletournier

What is a possible game changer is the emergence of Bitcoin ETF's, one just started on the Canadian exchange and there will be an Australian one soon. Im fairly certain that's why Bitcoin critics like Mark Cuban and Kevin O Leary have changed their views.

ETFs solve the custodian responsibility issue BUT once again it suggests it's not a currency but more a speculative asset that has no function other than bring a speculative asset.

Of course, the exchanges aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.

They are profiting...suddenly bitcoin is just as expensive as using the banking system and you have govt oversight following every transaction...all the things proponents say makes it so great disappear if it becomes mainstream with built in protections.

Of course, exchanges aren't new. Several have come and gone...often gone with the bitcoins they hold.

As you say, it doesn't function as a currency and as a speculative asset, it has no underlying value.

Dollars may be fiat but it has the backing of the US govt which would collapse if the dollar went belly up, so the US (and several other countries which depend on it) will do a lot to keep it viable.

If (when?) bitcoin implodes, it will come with a great collective shrug from anyone not heavily invested in it. Many countries will quietly cheer on the collapse.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Chotu

That’s how you’d do it???

Why?

I’d go once, when I arrive in a country and get a month's worth of cash from selling a piece of gold.

That’s it. They don’t make reputable gold small enough to try to sell for every dozen eggs you buy. That would be nuts. You’d get about $1700 a trip and do it maybe once a month, if that.

Do you have a large vault of gold bullion in your home port?

On a 2yr trip, that would be around $50k worth of gold to be carrying...do your report it to the border officials?

If you don't and they find it, you can expect them to presume you are doing something illegal and take it...I'm not talking about 3rd World Banana Republics either...most countries presume you are doing something bad if you cross the border with large amounts of unreported wealth and they have a tendency to just take it without any due process.

And if you report it, don't be surprised when the officials buddies show up in the middle of the night and take it.

And let's say all goes well you aren't robbed and the officials are OK with it You stop by the pawn shop to trade your gold bullion for cash...it will make the bank fees look positively cheap.

No, anyway you cut it, it's massively more complicated & stressful and likely going to cost you more in the long run to try and use gold as currency (which you kind of aren't if you immediately convert it to currency at the beginning of each month.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Chotu

That’s how you’d do it???

Why?

I’d go once, when I arrive in a country and get a month's worth of cash from selling a piece of gold.

That’s it. They don’t make reputable gold small enough to try to sell for every dozen eggs you buy. That would be nuts. You’d get about $1700 a trip and do it maybe once a month, if that.

I know people that do this.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Of course, the exchanges aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.

They are profiting...suddenly bitcoin is just as expensive as using the banking system and you have govt oversight following every transaction...all the things proponents say makes it so great disappear if it becomes mainstream with built in protections.

Of course, exchanges aren't new. Several have come and gone...often gone with the bitcoins they hold.

As you say, it doesn't function as a currency and as a speculative asset, it has no underlying value.

Dollars may be fiat but it has the backing of the US govt which would collapse if the dollar went belly up, so the US (and several other countries which depend on it) will do a lot to keep it viable.

If (when?) bitcoin implodes, it will come with a great collective shrug from anyone not heavily invested in it. Many countries will quietly cheer on the collapse.

You are talking about two different things, a crypto exchange is a completely different animal that a ETF setup on a major stock market exchange that gives the average investor the ability to buy Bitcoin just like he or she buys stock. It means I can purchase Bitcoin exposure through the commsec trading arm of the commonwealth bank.

This dosent mean I don't agree with much of what you say,I do BUT it also doesn't mean Bitcoin isnt around for a long time and we dont get it!

I'm challenging my what I consider rational views regarding Bitcoin, trying to see what others claim to see, there's lots of absolute fools in this space BUT theres also people I respect in this space thus I'm doing the work to try to get a better understanding.

Crypto is a big part of the future, I doubt Bitcoin will be what they claim it will be , but who knows.

[SailOar]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

.... So for ordinary expenses, I recommend a TransferWise multicurrency credit card. The best exchange rates and lowest costs. Or comparable card from another payment system. American Express is not widely accepted in many parts of the world. Visa from a U.S. bank will result in hefty fees and a poor exchange rate. Check out TransferWise.

FWIW, Transferwise has recently changed its name to Wise.

https://transferwise.com/us

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wise_(company)

[flyingfin]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I’m sorry but you are completely wrong. There is no endgame with lack of investors... actually there is only a limited amount of bitcoin available and when all has been mined you can only get it when someone is willing to sell it to you.

Really?? Only a limited amount of Bitcoin available? So how did Elan Musk just buy $1.5 billion dollars worth? Did he hire miners to go solve crossword puzzles for it? Or are there miners around the world just sitting around on piles of Bitcoin? Sounds like somebody has been drinking that Kool Aid?

We'll all be drinkin' that free Bubble Up
And eatin' that rainbow stew - Brother Merle

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by flyingfin

Really?? Only a limited amount of Bitcoin available? So how did Elan Musk just buy $1.5 billion dollars worth? Did he hire miners to go solve crossword puzzles for it? Or are there miners around the world just sitting around on piles of Bitcoin? Sounds like somebody has been drinking that Kool Aid?

We'll all be drinkin' that free Bubble Up
And eatin' that rainbow stew - Brother Merle

Yep, total number of possible bitcoin is 21,000,000.
So far about 18,600,000 have been mined.

Elon either mined some of them himself or bought some from the existing supply.

It ain't complicated to buy stuff if you have money.

[Jdege]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The problem with Bitcoin is volatility. Buying it as a bet on its increasing in value is one thing. But using it as a medium of exchange is an entirely different function. And for that, the volatility sucks.

Truthfully, I don't see it as an investment, of as a medium of exchange.

What it might be, though, is a hedge against inflation.

And a protection against government overreach.

• The Secret, Dangerous World of Venezuelan Bitcoin Mining
• Venezuelans Don't Believe in Bitcoin. They Need Bitcoin.
• Bitcoin Is Protecting Human Rights Around the World

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by Creedence

Looks like Bitcoin is stealing the show (as usual!!)



Does anyone have any experience converting gold in remote destinations?

Not in remote locations with Gold sales but reasonably often in London, Brisbane,Perth and Singapore. France is a problem selling bullion but gold coins are sellable in Paris (in my case Krugerrands) without being penalised. I suspect that gold coins are generally much easier to exchange for cash .
Carefully research the price of gold at the time of the transaction and pay close attention to to what the buyer is offering...... the difference can be astronomical in the buyers favour at small gold buying businesses. Oh, don’t actually flash any gold until the agreement is made, that will attract unwanted attention.
Pete.