Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for Us?

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

No, let's not! The whole value of a forum like this one comes from people sharing information and opinions. When you take it to e-mail, or PMs, then we all lose out. I simply do not understand why so many people come to a public forum like this one, and then want to take all of the really GOOD exchange of information private!

So the armchair boaters and dolts don't clutter the thread to the point of slashing your wrists.

There ARE some things best gone over in a flurry of PMs or as I do..have them call me. More info passed in 10 minutes than a month of forum jabber.

I like forums..but like text messages, they have their limitations.

[azhootie]

I was actually going to ask a question that you just answered so thank you! When people mentioned the thousands of dollars we'd spend making the trip across the ocean, I was thinking "but what about once we get there? We would be burning very little fuel." I'm not interested in getting a boat and constantly being on the move. As an example, I'm thinking it could take us a year just to explore and enjoy the Caribbean! We will have all the time in the world once we decide to take up this lifestyle. Once we get to Fiji/Tahiti, I could see us spending many months there as well and prolly a year or so if/when we made it to the Med. We'd be in no hurry to get anywhere and would definitely wait for good weather to be on the move.

Thank you again!

Originally Posted by CaptForce

This statement from Vic trumps everything else that has been said about expense, repairs, and miles per gallon. If you want to cut your fuel costs in half, simply spend a little more time enjoying the port your in before cruising to the next destination. If you want to lessen your repair costs, wait for the best of weather and take the route with shorter hops while.
I'll be the first to admit that we are lazy "cockpit potatoes"! We usually take a slip near family for the holidays from Thanksgiving to the New Year and then we might take a month to cruise from North Florida to the Bahamas or Keys. I'll turn around for a northbound cruise this comming saturday and I'll likely arrive in Maine sometime in mid-july. That will be five months for us to get from Florida to Maine. I'm not propossing this style of travel for all, but I'll be quick to point out that it is vastly cheaper to complete a potential two week voyage in five months! We're not choosing this manner of cruising in order to conserve funds. It's just a beneficial outcome of what we enjoy.

[tomfl]

Just a quick thought about the cost of sail verses motor. A CF search will turn up threads showing replacing standing and running rigging and sails can exceed the cost of gas/motor repair. Even if that is not the case it is wrong to assume sailing is free. On the other hand some folks will buy brand new Doyle sails while others will go to some place like Bacon and get bargain used sails.

My experience has been folks who have sail boats often have them because they like to sail, not because there is a big economic advantage. On the other hand for the right person on the right boat it will be much cheaper to sail any distance than to motor.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by azhootie

I was actually going to ask a question that you just answered so thank you! When people mentioned the thousands of dollars we'd spend making the trip across the ocean, I was thinking "but what about once we get there? We would be burning very little fuel." I'm not interested in getting a boat and constantly being on the move. As an example, I'm thinking it could take us a year just to explore and enjoy the Caribbean! We will have all the time in the world once we decide to take up this lifestyle. Once we get to Fiji/Tahiti, I could see us spending many months there as well and prolly a year or so if/when we made it to the Med. We'd be in no hurry to get anywhere and would definitely wait for good weather to be on the move.

Thank you again!

There are many who discourage Pacific or Atlantic crossings. Every time I've talked Atlantic crossing I've had people tell me to ship it. They don't understand our desire to do the crossing itself. Yes, it is expensive, but if one has planned and can afford it and wants to do it then cost becomes a non factor.

There are so many places to explore and our crossings are planned years from now. But we do intend to explore widely.

[VirtualVagabond]

Originally Posted by BandB

There are many who discourage Pacific or Atlantic crossings. Every time I've talked Atlantic crossing I've had people tell me to ship it. They don't understand our desire to do the crossing itself. Yes, it is expensive, but if one has planned and can afford it and wants to do it then cost becomes a non factor.

There are so many places to explore and our crossings are planned years from now. But we do intend to explore widely.

I would think it would cost a fair bit to ship a boat from the Caribbean or USA to the Med. Probably a heap more than sailing.

We would never dream of shipping. The cost is way out of our reach, but more importantly we'd miss out on those long stretches with just the 2 of us... no phone, no tv, no newspapers, no internet, just an occasional email via sailmail to keep in touch with family, or to contact Atoll .
There is also the thrill of a new landfall after weeks at sea, and of course the satisfaction of having done it. Not to mention the biggest fish Sandy has ever caught. A 1.34 metre Dorado (Mahi Mahi). She was so excited she dropped the damn net overboard!

It really isn't that difficult. Prepare the boat, sail to the next island. Sometimes it just takes a few weeks to get there.

Vic

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by tomfl

.................. My experience has been folks who have sail boats often have them because they like to sail, not because there is a big economic advantage. ................

Great observation and often overlooked! Sailboats due best for those with a passion for sailing!

[Aussiesuede]

Originally Posted by azhootie

I was actually going to ask a question that you just answered so thank you! When people mentioned the thousands of dollars we'd spend making the trip across the ocean, I was thinking "but what about once we get there? We would be burning very little fuel." !

I wouldn't be overly concerned with the fuel cost on the size of trawler in your price range. You've described about 8000 miles of travel and most trawlers in you price range are going to have a burn rate between 1.5gph to 2gph. Over the course of 2 years, that breaks down as follows:

8000miles / 7knts avg = 1142 hours of engine runtime * 1.5gph = 1715 gallons of diesel * $4/gallon average price = $6860 / 24 months = $285/month in fuel cost.


But an issue of concern is where to store the necessary fuel for a Pacific crossing. Trawlers in your price range will average 300 gallons of tankage and you'll need a minimum of 500 gallons for the crossing to your first refueling opportunity if you take an indirect route to maximise refueling opportunities. That's 40 five gallon jerry cans of fuel, or 16 twelve gallon mini-tanks you'll need to store. Doable, but definitely a consideration.

The sailboat route generally makes the most sense for the long distance portion of your route, but let's face it - you'll be spending a LOT more days at anchor than in transit. So ultimately it's what you're most comfortable with. Everyone will have a different ranking of choices. for me it was:

1. Sailing Catamaran
2. Trawler
3. Tug Boat Conversion
4. Sailing Monohull

Your order of preference will be ultimately different and the only way to get a feel is to get out there and get as much of a feel aboard as you can. Only you will know what truly suits YOU best.

[Stu Jackson]

Some very nice answers to your questions here, good reading.

Calculating average gph should NOT include when you're NOT moving. It simply makes little, actually NO sense, because you calculate fuel consumption based on engine run hours, not days.

I thought I'd take a little different tack on this, can you tell I sail?

Here are some good reads:

Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of the Offshore Yachts (A Nautical quarterly book): John Rousmaniere: 9780393033113: Amazon.com: Books

Something some have mentioned: sailboats and mobos have completely different motions when at anchor. It partly has to do with hull shape and form, but much of it has to do with the obvious, although not mentioned yet: sailboats have these deep heavy keels. Think about it.

A friend's trip from Vancouver, BC to Mexico:

1500 Mile Interim Refit Report & 3596 Update

Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook: A Compendium for Coastal and Offshore Sailors: Nigel Calder: 9780071350990: Amazon.com: Books

Great book. First half discusses boats, hulls, belowdecks accomodations, second half is some mech & elec, some great and simple navigation information. For monohull sailboats - explains the whats and whys very, very well. Covers systems, anchoring, etc.

Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual: How to Maintain, Repair, and Improve Your Boat's Essential Systems: Nigel Calder: 9780071432382: Amazon.com: Books

The "companion" to the last link. The BIBLE for boatowners with boats with systems, works for all types of boats. If I had ONLY two books to take with me, these Calder books would be those two. You could do a lot worse with others. And I've read ALL of them, and own most of them.

Singlehanded Sailing: The Experiences and Techniques of the Lone Voyagers: Richard Henderson: 9780877420620: Amazon.com: Books

Older hardcover edition in link, also available and updated in soft cover. A great read for anyone venturing out.

There are, undoubtedly, a tremendous volume of books on these subjects. These are my top ten list even though only a few. If you don't have time to read everything in a chandlery library, at least consider borrowing or buying these. Even if you are considering power or a cat.

There are also, as mentioned by an earlier poster, books like this on power boat voyages. Find 'em and read 'em.

Finally, there are thousands of blogs now on the internet. Trying to weed through them is daunting at best. Here's one that covers a trip from the States to the Bahamas in a reasonably sized boat, well written with a VALUABLE appendix with spares and parts and experience. There have to be thousands of quality blogs like this, but I enjoyed this one so much I bookmarked it.

http://cblights.com/cruising/icwbahamas.html

On the left pane, click on the (Journal) under ICW & Bahamas.

Good luck, happy planning and happy hunting.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

................

Calculating average gph should NOT include when you're NOT moving. It simply makes little, actually NO sense, because you calculate fuel consumption based on engine run hours, not days ................

You are absolutely correct when it comes to calculating gph. When you take the gph data and find that you are spending 24 hours in spans of time not motoring it's ok to call them days. Sometimes we remain at anchor without motoring for about 160 hours and we call it a week. Many people calculate their budget by the month and therefore, they might find it convenient to record gallons used per month. 'nothing wrong with this,- it's the same math.

I certainly agree that calculating the fuel efficiency of the engine would not include time not running; however, it's essential in bugeting your cruising funds.

[psneeld]

I like overall numbers for long trips because they actually give a better predictor in my case than trying to "guess at small calculations" all added together. If I piece together the last 5 trips up and down the ICW for say a 1000 miles apiece ...my guesstimate for the next one is probably way more accurate for planning purposes than any of the tiny calculations.

Now if I'm making a 70 mile, 12 hour run into fairly well known tide and wind conditions...sure all the little numbers like GPH and NMPG are useful.

Sort of like planning for retirement using what your annual costs are instead of weekly costs.

[Goosebumps]

cost cost cost, i cant imagine one can get a sizeable reliable economic safe motor yacht for 200k, when in need a possibility to sail can save the trip. i plan to cruise Madagascar a year And i can predict that engines will break down or wont be able to be well serviced because of lack of spares, mechanicl skill. a sail cruising catamaran has lots of redundancy, in that it has two engines, one pacis up you can still go on, and the third engine, or for lots of us the first engine our sails.

[aspiringcruiser]

this is a very pesimistic (yet some parts very true) comparison. dont forget about all the great things! being a liveaboard is a lifestyle.

[Lepke]

I am 65 and live on a wood power boat. I have lived on the water much of my life. I am a Vietnam vet and I have a military disability pension and other income that gives me about $3000 a month after taxes. Because of the military disability I can use the VA Hospital system. It's not like a union health plan, but seems to get the job done. So no money is spent on health insurance. Boat insurance is about $1500 a year for liability or $6000 for full coverage. My income seems to cover everything. Currently I am doing some rebuilding and have found a dock with cheap rent and a woodshop. I can do most work or hire a helper and supervise things that need to be done that I can no longer do. I have professional experience and try to do maintenance that is long lasting and cost effective.
Living aboard is a harder life. Sometimes you have a long walk or row to shore. Many times in the rain or snow. You haul groceries, gear, laundry (if you don't have a washer aboard), and at marinas you have to walk your dog and clean up after it. (I have a black lab). But all that trouble may keep me healthy. I wouldn't live anywhere else. People see me moving bags of groceries in the rain and snow and ask me how I do it. My answer is "It sure beats living in ANY neighborhood". You have boat maintenance, but no lawn to mow, no bushes to trim, no petty local politics and easy to change neighbors or have no neighbors at all. My power boat gets about 1 mile to the gallon of diesel at 10 knots. When I bought it it was .7 miles to the gallon at 10 knots. I figure I can travel 500 miles a month, more or less depending where and how I spend the winter. If I have a cheap winter I can go to Hawaii and back in the summer. I don't because I don't like hot crowded places, so air conditioning isn't an issue, but heating is. I have a pellet stove with a hot water coil tied to my boiler heating system and can go thru the winter on $5-$10 a day in pellets. With diesel it's $20+ a day. I am still working on insulating the whole boat - there was none - and the plumbing and heating system. Hopefully it will get cheaper. I like to fish, especially tuna and salmon, so that costs fuel but saves groceries and in the NW USA I can trade fish or fishing for beef, produce, etc.
If living on a boat is long term, you need to think of comfort. I have a power boat because I wanted a washer, dryer and dishwasher. One of my trades was commercial fishing and I have experienced long times at sea, dealing with port /dock issues, hauling laundry and groceries, bad marina water, and spending time anchored. I wanted enough room so more than one person could find private quiet space. That's hard to do in most sail boats. You might open your mind to boats other than the name brand boats that everyone (read marine brokers) are talking about. One consideration for me was my age at the time and assuming the age when I can no longer function, how long a boat needed to last. While this boat will be in much better condition than when I bought it, resale was never a worry. My boat is a yacht professionally converted from a WWII Coast Guard patrol boat, wood. You get a lot more for the money with wood, but you have to be very careful. Also there are many nice conversions from steel commercial boats because of changes in fishing regulations. They will probably be bigger and better built than your usual yacht. Mine has twin main engines and two generators, so 100% backup. And I have returned to port on one engine. Twice. Once as a commercial fisherman. To use a wood boat in the tropics you have to have excellent bottom maintenance. Mine has overlapping copper sheets on the bottom. Outside the US you can get better bottom paint that lasts longer.
One of my projects is a bigger inverter, solar cells and wind turbine so I can avoid running a generator as much as possible. Especially at anchor. I have my own custom built 12 volt water maker that makes enough fresh water for laundry, dishwashers and so on running one or two days a week. The water tests better than any USA city water. In the summer with the new inverter and anchored I can get by for as little as $500 a month ($1000 a month with full boat insurance) if I run to the store in a skiff and avoid those marina expenses. Some months I put money in the bank and some months I take it out.
Since you're wanting to travel the Pacific check out Pacific Boat Brokers Inc. They have one of the best internet sites and are honest to a fault. All the usual boy scout stuff: helpful, kind courteous and on and on. Pacific BB would be my 1st choice in either buying or selling a boat.

Lepke

[azhootie]

Thank you Goosebumps.....I am definitely leaning towards a sailing catamaran and have been checking out where we might charter one....the Seychelles would be the closest. Now just have to find some time that hubby can take off work which is easier said than done!

Many thanks Aspiringcruiser for adding a bit of optimism here!!

A million thanks for your very helpful post, Lepke. No way will I ever be anywhere where there is snow again! Spent some of my elementary school years up on the iron range in Minnesota where they'd cancel school because with the windchill factor it was 40 or 50 below zero. When I left there, I swore to myself I'd never live in snow or cold again. Give me the hot crowded places!

We also have insurance for life through my husband's pension....only good in the US though. Friends here in South Africa have an international insurance plan that we will look into. We opted to get SA insurance for our 3 years here. Anyway so we'd have boat insurance to pay for as well as all the maintenance and day to day living expenses and it's nice to hear you are doing that on $3000/month because that's right around what we'll have without dipping into savings/investment/401Ks.

I will check out PBB today! Thank you for that.

And lastly thank you to each of the others who have shared such great information and insight. Your time is not being wasted, I assure you! I am reading everything and sharing information with my hubby when he gets home from work each day. I told him he created a monster with the liveaboard idea!

Here's to life!

[Dale Hedtke]

Chris gee's comments about whether you keep or sell your house is interesting and brings up some issues I've often considered. While we plan to hang onto our house while we are out cruising (we are not full time liveaboards), we understand the cost for doing so. Luckily we have found a friend to house sit for a year. He'll pay the utilities and take care of the house/yard/driveway.
It used to be more likely that a house will appreciate (while it's still true boats don't), but there are several factors that need to be considered when making the "sell the house decision":
-Can I buy another similar house that will satisfy me? (in our case, NO)
-What does it cost me to own the house while away? (PITI, maintenance, personal goods storage, rental license & management fees, tax & insurance increases)
-If the house is in rental, who manages it and what does that cost?
-What's the mortgage? If you have a high mortgage with a low interest rate (and perhaps a tax bracket that favors the interest deduction), your investment decision may be different from someone who has large equity (it's all about return on investment.) Currently I favor having a substantial mortgage with the <3% interest rate we have even though we could pay off the mortgage. I like having the cash around.
-What do you think the stock market will do? Lately the market has been very good and IMO better than real estate.
-What will it take to put the house back into the condition YOU want after the renters leave?

I'm not arguing for any particular choice. Everyone's situation is different. I just would like to point out that hanging onto a house only for financial considerations may not make sense.
On another note, we regard ownership of our boat as an investment in life style and are willing to have the expenses.