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Old 28-10-2015, 09:57   #61
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

Downsides:
-Beam for hauling
-2 engines to maintain
-Beam for finding a slip
-Cost
-More jerky motion
-Large heavy mainsail
Upsides:
-Beam/cabins for living
-no rolling, at anchor too
-Extra engine in case one fails
-Faster Speed, except to windward.
-No ladder, bruised hips etc.
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Old 28-10-2015, 16:55   #62
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post

(...)

And the Gunboat didn't suffer damage from green water, they lost their rig from a 70 kt. wind gust which then apparently did some damage to the boat.

(...)
I stand corrected. Must admit the image of cabin-less Gunboat found mid Atlantic still stuck in my mind. Clearly the waves removed the superstructure once the Gunboat was already ears deep in the water and so full force of waves did damage.

The other cat I had actually in mind was one styled after a Gunboat (hence my mixing them up), an Aeroyacht Alpha.

HELICOPTER EVACUATION: Abandoning Be Good Too | Sailfeed

I quote the passage where it says about green water actually doing damage to the bridgedeck superstructure:

"... A fair amount of water squirted in all around the edges of the window panes and one large piece of trim was blown right off one vertical frame..."

All that not to bash any cats or any windows, only my attempt to show that green water does create issues no matter what style or size the boat is.

I am simply not in the styrofoam club. If waves can remove a window from a line cruiser and a ramp from an ocean going ferry, they can do all sorts of imaginable and otherwise damage to a sailing catamaran. So saying green water reaching the bridgedeck is not so much of an issue on a cat is simply not in line with my experience nor with my knowledge.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 28-10-2015, 17:04   #63
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

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Originally Posted by RunawayC47 View Post
We have sailed many times in the mid to upper teens with glasses of wine on the table. Our mono friends call it the Magic Carpet Ride. On a mono you would be healed at 30 degrees. Very different.

A mono might be easier going to weather in big seas. I prefer to not beat to weather in any boat if possible. On long crossings you have time to use the wind shifts and hopefully the trade winds.


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Yes, we saw extended periods of 12 knots in our lagoon 42. It was carrying all the gear off our previous Passport 47 mono.... and carrying it much better. I may have seen 10 in the 47 mono for a fleeting moment. "gentlemen never sail to weather" :>)
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Old 28-10-2015, 17:32   #64
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

HELICOPTER EVACUATION: Abandoning Be Good Too | Sailfeed

Read the whole thing.

I have wintered over at Liberty Landing and wouldn't even fantasize for a second about moving a boat from there to the Caribbean, through the gulf stream in January.

Exactly my point about bad seamanship.

Bad seamanship has the potential to destroy any boat and take lives. What catamaran owners here have had "green water" roll over their salon?

I haven't.
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Old 30-10-2015, 06:58   #65
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

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Originally Posted by 2hullvenus View Post
[url=http://www.sailfeed.com/2014/01/helicopter-evacuation-abandoning-be-good-too/]...

Bad seamanship has the potential to destroy any boat and take lives. What catamaran owners here have had "green water" roll over their salon?

I haven't.
Never solid green water over the deck house, but I have had heavy spray and some water all the way over, but only a few times in really ugly conditions. Have only seen the decks fully awash once, that was in big confused seas when we got slammed by multiple wave trains at once...they basically pined the boat between them and broke on top of it.

Have had water make its way up the transom steps and into the cockpit a couple of times in big (15-20') followings seas, but only about 5 gallons actually made it into the cockpit.

While green water on deck, and worse, can happen on any boat, it is in my experience much less common on most cats.
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Old 30-10-2015, 08:04   #66
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

It seems we may have lost sight of the OP's original question - he posted in the 'liveaboards' thread, seeking advice on a boat for living and working aboard in Mexico, on both coasts. He did not ask about the best choice for long offshore passages and in fact, it would seem that his intentions involve very few passages at all.

It strikes me that with those parameters in mind, it would be very hard to beat a catamaran - indeed, what is commonly referred to by many as a condomaran. The advantages in terms of space, both below and above deck, interior brightness and privacy as well as stability under anchor (and due to shoal draft, availability of anchorages) would seem to carry the day. Furthermore for an inexperienced sailor, the advantages of twin engines in terms of maneuverability for docking would seem to vastly outweigh the increased costs of maintaining two engines.

Brad
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Old 30-10-2015, 09:10   #67
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

It's normal for some reason for posts to go down the "blue water hole" here.
A guy asks about a Hunter for cruising the Bahamas, and before long someone will say they wouldn't cross the Atlantic in one in winter. I don't know why that is.

I like the heavy furniture and lots of wood used in a good mono's interior, I do not like the modern, lightweight stuff in the few Cats I've been aboard, although I do understand why, I'm just old fashioned, I love teak in an interior. I do not like a lot of the production Mono's for the same reason, I like my "teak cave". This is going to sound silly, but most Cats look more like spaceships to me than a sailboat and I understand the attraction to Modern. Now to many that is an attraction, but us old fashioned folks, not so much. I like thick solid glass hulls, I fear cored hulls.
I'd bet if there was a poll you would find on average the old farts in the Mono's and the kids in the Cats.
I do like the Salon and deck, who wouldn't? But dislike the tube feel of the hulls, again on the few Cats I've been aboard, and I have not been on a BIG Cat.

The Beer bottle analogy is very close to my boat, any 38' boat with 10,000 lbs of ballast hung underneath it is going to float like a half full beer bottle, that's just physics, but I believe punching through waves gives a better ride, although of course more water over the top.


What we need is a mono hulled Tardis, that way we can have it all
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Old 30-10-2015, 10:18   #68
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

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Originally Posted by haiqu View Post
I did say "internal room." I agree that catamarans appear to be roomier due to the greater plate area, but many older designs under 35' don't have any sort of cabin between the hulls. At 30' and under almost none do, they're intended as fine weather day sailers only.

I'm not sure how old you consider old but plenty of older options (Prout, Catalac, Gemini, Endeavor). I challenge you to show me a mono with the interior space of a Endeavor 30. Pretty much all of those have more interior space than a mono of the same length. It's particularly apparent if you are talking 30-40yr old mono's which don't have nearly the interior space of modern mono designs.

The OP was asking about coastal but the Prouts and Catalacs are often described as tanks well suited to offshore and I know several Gemini's that have done ocean crossing and been out in bad conditions with breaking up.

The Hartley Tahitian 33 / Queenslander is 3'9" in bilge keel version, standard keel is 4'6". Even the Tahitian 50 has a mere 4'9" draft in bilge keel version, standard keel is 5'9". I haven't done a complete survey but those are the ones I know about. I'm currently sitting in a Tasman 27'er with a draft of 3'0"

Sure you can go with bilge keels but outside a few areas where they are popular, they are pretty rare. Given the OP is talking Mexico, that's a tough find.

Otherwise, you are listing drafts that are pretty much what I described. In some areas it's not a big deal but on the east coast of the bahamas, it's a real nice feature to get into really shallow anchorages.



Although I intend to live forever (so far, so good) waiting another 20 years isn't really a practical option for those of us who have to buy used.

Here's the thing: In the Australian / NZ market, the minimum you'll pay for ANY cruising catamaran or trimaran - even home-made and 30 years old - is $20,000 and for that money I can easily buy five good keelers.
Good and $4k for a 35' boat don't go together. To claim otherwise is a joke. That may get you a solid hull but just about everything else will be trash unless you took advantage of a senile widow.

Having just gone thru the purchase process on our second cat (anyone need a nice Gemini as we can't justify having two boats on two continents), I was coming across lots of 30-35' cats in the $12-35k range. Yeah they were older and needed a little work but most were usable condition. Show me a similar mono in that price range that is in perfect sail away condition.

Maybe its the austrailian market realizing cats are so much better, you can't give away a mono.
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Old 30-10-2015, 10:20   #69
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
It's normal for some reason for posts to go down the "blue water hole" here.....
...or guns, or anchors, or mono vs cat.
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Old 30-10-2015, 16:29   #70
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

I dreamed of buying a Morgan 41' Out Islander for years, because of all the room inside we enjoyed on a barefoot charter. When I was finally ready to buy, went to the Miami boat show to walk through all of the sailboats.

First walk through on a cat and I was sold:

1) shallower draft. We sail Florida and the Bahamas.

2) Two engines. I don't care what anyone says here, two engines are better than one when it comes to safety and safety trumps everything. Had an engine quit in the middle of the St. Lucie Inlet, 11 PM, 12' seas, rock jetty on both sides - I rest my case! (rope from dingy wrapped around a prop). Just get Yanmars, they are the best - IMO. Boat will turn like a tank, on it's own axis.

3) Stability. I've crossed the Gulf Stream in 4' to 6' seas with my drink sitting on the counter.

4) They Sail Flat. No healing over. Walk the decks in 20 knot winds on a broad reach with a couple of degrees of healing versus the extreme healing on a mono hull. IMO another big safety issue goes to the cat.

5) Anchoring. No rolling, total stability. Love the bridle setup - shock absorbs for safer anchoring.

6) More Room! I would estimate that our 38' cat has more room than a 50' mono. So I've got more room, for less money, less docking fees, etc. In 10+ years of ownership, I have NEVER had a marina charge more for my cat than a mono. Granted, slips are harder to find, but that is changing, marinas are waking up.

7) Better Layout. We have an Owner's Stateroom in the starboard hull, with an office, electric head / vanity and a separate shower forward. The port hull has a head in the middle of the hull and a stateroom aft and forward. Bridge deck is a salon, navigation table and galley. So it's a split plan, with guests and owner separated by the living area. Most all homes are built that way these days.

8) Better Visibility. I can see around the entire boat from my elevated helm.

9) More boat, with less weight. Running aground and freeing yourself is much easier on a cat. First off, you're only running aground with one hull, 90% of the time. So freeing the boat is much easier. Our cat is 16,000 lbs. A 50' mono with comparable room would be many, many, many, many, many times heavier, yielding it much harder to free it.

10) Salon Visibility. No comparison.

The most stable position for a mono-hull is on the bottom of the sea. The most stable position for a cat is upside down.
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Old 30-10-2015, 16:58   #71
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

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Originally Posted by timbenner View Post
...

In 10+ years of ownership, I have NEVER had a marina charge more for my cat than a mono. Granted, slips are harder to find, but that is changing, marinas are waking up.

...Running aground and freeing yourself is much easier on a cat. First off, you're only running aground with one hull, 90% of the time. So freeing the boat is much easier. Our cat is 16,000 lbs. A 50' mono with comparable room would be many, many, many, many, many times heavier, yielding it much harder to free it.

....
You've been lucky on marinas, just for reference there are plenty of marinas that charge more for cats.

Running aground. While yes, you usually only ground on one hull, if you run a cat hard aground on both hulls your options are very limited. Ive never done it, but have been involved in freeing some who have...one ultimately involved a crane barge. This one case where lack reasonable ability to heel a cat is not a plus.
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Old 30-10-2015, 17:46   #72
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

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You've been lucky on marinas, just for reference there are plenty of marinas that charge more for cats.

Running aground. While yes, you usually only ground on one hull, if you run a cat hard aground on both hulls your options are very limited. Ive never done it, but have been involved in freeing some who have...one ultimately involved a crane barge. This one case where lack reasonable ability to heel a cat is not a plus.
I have never been charged more for a cat. Always the length of the boat, times a per-foot charge. Now most times you do end up on a t-head, and sometimes a slip wide enough. But never paid more for essentially a width factor.

To others, making generalizations on cats is not valid, as different manufacturers do things differently. I hate the steering station on most very large cats, but love the dual-wheel setup of my Seawind. Whenever we raft up, everyone ends up in our salon - vs the cramped cockpit alternatives. We have never been left behind going upwind vs similar length monohulls, and reaching and downwind there is no comparison. When the wind pipes up to reef conditions, wave bye to them as they fight being pushed over.

The real thing is to just step aboard and look over the boat. Is it more comfortable at anchor - duh that is easy to figure out even at the dock. Take one out sailing, and see how it performs. Some cats are dogs, many are not. Oh, and I have run mine aground a few times, and a couple of times required assistance to get off. Water 3 ft deep vs a 3-1/2 ft draft. I have never stuck both keels though. Generally it is because of veering out of a channel, in which case one keel is stuck. Never two, and never know anyone who stuck two. And I run in a multihull crowd.

Oh, and when you get in the situation of green water breaking over the bow, rushing back and over the hard top - it is very nice just stepping forward and watching all of that dump in the cockpit behind you, and drain away. Windows clear, and you keep on sailing. On a monohull, that is a much more exciting occurrence, with soft windows that generally don't hold up well to a boarding sea.

Again, go sail them both, and then compare. There are very few generalizations that hold up for all of the manufacturers of both. Except for the number of hulls!
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Old 30-10-2015, 21:05   #73
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

All cats are not equal. We have had some that had a wonderful motion at anchor with a beam swell and others that would throw you out of a bunk. We have also run aground with both keels. No problem if you pivot the boat for side to side with the motors as you work your way aft.


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Old 31-10-2015, 03:24   #74
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

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Originally Posted by sailjumanji View Post
..................
.................. On a monohull, that is a much more exciting occurrence, with soft windows that generally don't hold up well to a boarding sea. .....
I still can't buy into this debate of "fruits and nuts". Why would there be a reason not to accept both as quality options and both with compromises.
....., but soft portlights? (I can not use the term "windows" for a boat!) How can it be said that the portlights on monohulls are soft?
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Old 31-10-2015, 03:55   #75
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Re: Pros & cons of buying a multihull over a mono hull

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Originally Posted by sailjumanji View Post
I have never been charged more for a cat. Always the length of the boat, times a per-foot charge. Now most times you do end up on a t-head, and sometimes a slip wide enough. But never paid more for essentially a width factor.

To others, making generalizations on cats is not valid, as different manufacturers do things differently. I hate the steering station on most very large cats, but love the dual-wheel setup of my Seawind. Whenever we raft up, everyone ends up in our salon - vs the cramped cockpit alternatives. We have never been left behind going upwind vs similar length monohulls, and reaching and downwind there is no comparison. When the wind pipes up to reef conditions, wave bye to them as they fight being pushed over.

The real thing is to just step aboard and look over the boat. Is it more comfortable at anchor - duh that is easy to figure out even at the dock. Take one out sailing, and see how it performs. Some cats are dogs, many are not. Oh, and I have run mine aground a few times, and a couple of times required assistance to get off. Water 3 ft deep vs a 3-1/2 ft draft. I have never stuck both keels though. Generally it is because of veering out of a channel, in which case one keel is stuck. Never two, and never know anyone who stuck two. And I run in a multihull crowd.

Oh, and when you get in the situation of green water breaking over the bow, rushing back and over the hard top - it is very nice just stepping forward and watching all of that dump in the cockpit behind you, and drain away. Windows clear, and you keep on sailing. On a monohull, that is a much more exciting occurrence, with soft windows that generally don't hold up well to a boarding sea.

Again, go sail them both, and then compare. There are very few generalizations that hold up for all of the manufacturers of both. Except for the number of hulls!
Er.. not quite.
Catamarans get charged more in lots of places in the Med. The secret is to avoid them.
Soft windows on a Mono? Seems to me monos have a charmed life then.

I sail both types of boat and although I prefer multihulls, I would be equally confident offshore in the Westerly Centaur in rough weather. Not saying Id like it but the Mono is a sound plucky craft with sturdy windows.

People forget that its a CHOICE between 2 types of boat. Neither sacrifice seaworthiness.

Either vessel would outstorm me...... Id be wimping out.
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