Unseen - a Survey - a Visit - No Broker!

[settlednomad]

Hi Rakuflames,

There are many here who wouldn't do it the way I'm doing it and I understand all the reasons. However, in my circumstance, I feel it is the most cost effective solution. The worst that can happen is that the survey picks up a load of problems and I walk away from it...I'll be several hundreds of pounds out of pocket but I'm willing to take that risk and to lose that money. Flights alone, to go and see the boat, without accommodation, were upwards of a thousand pounds... No easy solution but I do have a very good gut feeling about it all and I'm in daily communication with the owners who are simply delightful and informative. They have answered every query and question without delay. Only time will tell though I do feel that it will all come good in the end

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by LBH49520

Hi Rakuflames,

There are many here who wouldn't do it the way I'm doing it and I understand all the reasons. However, in my circumstance, I feel it is the most cost effective solution. The worst that can happen is that the survey picks up a load of problems and I walk away from it...I'll be several hundreds of pounds out of pocket but I'm willing to take that risk and to lose that money. Flights alone, to go and see the boat, without accommodation, were upwards of a thousand pounds... No easy solution but I do have a very good gut feeling about it all and I'm in daily communication with the owners who are simply delightful and informative. They have answered every query and question without delay. Only time will tell though I do feel that it will all come good in the end

Fingers crossed that she's the right boat for you!

That said, if you can find someone to do a "survey light" before the actual one, that might be a good idea -- as the other poster said, with lots of photos. If you can't, you can't.

[boatman61]

Strange thing I've found in my boat buying... only met 1 less than honest owner.. when I landed in SMX I learned by how much...
But I was there with a 2 week return ticket... so I mooched the bars and yards and sailed away with a French Bene... instead of a Cheoy Lee...
However the 13 others all volunteered information above and beyond and went out of their way to help me.. even as far as driving up to 5hrs to collect me from airports..
If it feels good... go with the flow...

Perspective's....
Every cloud has a Silver Lining... or...
Every silver lining has a Cloud...

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Strange thing I've found in my boat buying... only met 1 less than honest owner.. when I landed in SMX I learned by how much...
But I was there with a 2 week return ticket... so I mooched the bars and yards and sailed away with a French Bene... instead of a Cheoy Lee...
However the 13 others all volunteered information above and beyond and went out of their way to help me.. even as far as driving up to 5hrs to collect me from airports..
If it feels good... go with the flow...

Perspective's....
Every cloud has a Silver Lining... or...
Every silver lining has a Cloud...

I bought boats twice. Neither time were the owners at all honest about what the boat's strengths and weaknesses were. Honestly, I think the guy who owned this boat before me didn't even know. For instance, he put a headsail on it was designed to be reefed -- on a roller furler that can't be reefed.

The reason I had halyard wrap damage on my forestay was because he hung his headsail from the spinnaker halyard.

There was a line that ran from the port side of the mast, through a sheave at the top, and down the other side. On both sides, the line was secured with two giant "knots" he just made up out of nowhere, each the size of a fist. I have a picture of that somewhere and named them "fustercluck knots."

[goboatingnow]

Sorry Im late to this

Some facts

RCD ( CE marking) Has been in place since 1st June 1998, on the 1 aug 2005, the emissions and sound levels amendments were added.

If you buy the boat while she is out of the EU , Then VAT is due if you ever import her. The existing owners would have to bring her back to the EU to ensure VAT is not paid again ( you can't) This is known as Returned Goods Relief.

Once she has been deemed exported she now must have a CE cert on import. If the original owners bring her back she could once in the EU before 1998, be exempt from CE. it matter not what date she was orginally built or where she was built , if you buy her when she is abroad , she must be re-imported subject to VAT(again) and RCD(CE)

( In fairness if you and the seller are EU tax residents and make no mention the boat is in the carribean, its very difficult for anyone to determine shes actually in the carribean, you could just claim she came from the UK)


If you intend to register her in France and you live there, then you will need proof of VAT or not(and pay it) , and proof of CE certification, otherwise they will not register the yacht.

So if you intend to keep her outside the EU and sell her outside the EU, then its fine.

PS: I fully agree, pay for a survey rather then travelling first, there is no requirement to enter negotations etc, just ask a surveyor to do an inspection, even a preliminary one to give you an idea of the condition. You can proceed from there.

Note the french registration authorities will require a de-register( de-flaging) letter from the current registration agency, again one presume that will not give away the non EU destination of the yacht.

Dave

[CarlF]

You don't need a broker as you've already done the most important part of their work (bringing a qualified and interested buyer to the seller). At this point, the conflict of interest for brokers becomes a real problem: 1. They are paid solely by the seller. 2. They get paid only if the deal closes. Being a broker is a business. Don't expect them to work against their own financial interest.

As to the survey. I can see your point on the cost effective nature of a survey now but be realistic about the survey. Survey's do a few things:

1. Are required by the insurance company for coverage. In this case, the less put in the survey the better as they will require all items listed to be fixed.

2. Items to negotiate another 5-15% off the price. Bad batteries, shrouds that need replacing, a bad tank. These are items that shouldn't scuttle the deal.

3. Minor items such as a thru-hull with only one hose clamp that you'll put on your list of things to fix after you close.

4. Serious structural problems that mean you shouldn't buy the boat.

The only thing you care about before flying over is #4 yet most surveys are almost entirely occupied with the first three. Worse, most surveyors do a pretty poor job of #4 as it's hard to do well. Fortunately, the list of items under #4 is quite short. I can think of:

Rotted core (#1 worry if it applies)
Previous sinking or collision (#2 worry)
Delamination
Bad blistering
Rust in a steel boat or corrosion in aluminum
Serious rot in a wooden boat or wooden structural members in a glass boat.


I'd concentrate before your visit on ticking these deal killer items off. A survey might tell you but you could also consider:

Ask the owner for a letter from his insurance company of any claims

Ask to speak to his boat yard (this is a bit tricky but I've found it works quite well to tell the yard that you're thinking of buying the boat and are thinking you might want to continue using them)

Get a full list of work done on the boat from the owner. I agree with Boatman, most owners are honest and will tell you more about their boat than they probably should. This will also tell you how much the owner cared about maintenance (and could afford) -probably the most important thing you could know.

Good luck.

[carstenb]

the CE marking is really a major concern if you plan on. Flagging in the EU

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sorry Im late to this

Some facts

RCD ( CE marking) Has been in place since 1st June 1998, on the 1 aug 2005, the emissions and sound levels amendments were added.

If you buy the boat while she is out of the EU , Then VAT is due if you ever import her. The existing owners would have to bring her back to the EU to ensure VAT is not paid again ( you can't) This is known as Returned Goods Relief.

Once she has been deemed exported she now must have a CE cert on import. If the original owners bring her back she could once in the EU before 1998, be exempt from CE. it matter not what date she was orginally built or where she was built , if you buy her when she is abroad , she must be re-imported subject to VAT(again) and RCD(CE)

( In fairness if you and the seller are EU tax residents and make no mention the boat is in the carribean, its very difficult for anyone to determine shes actually in the carribean, you could just claim she came from the UK)


If you intend to register her in France and you live there, then you will need proof of VAT or not(and pay it) , and proof of CE certification, otherwise they will not register the yacht.

So if you intend to keep her outside the EU and sell her outside the EU, then its fine.

PS: I fully agree, pay for a survey rather then travelling first, there is no requirement to enter negotations etc, just ask a surveyor to do an inspection, even a preliminary one to give you an idea of the condition. You can proceed from there.

Note the french registration authorities will require a de-register( de-flaging) letter from the current registration agency, again one presume that will not give away the non EU destination of the yacht.

Dave

[Cheechako]

You want someone to act as escrow agent. Other than that I see no problem with not using a broker.

[Mimsy]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I bought boats twice. Neither time were the owners at all honest about what the boat's strengths and weaknesses were. Honestly, I think the guy who owned this boat before me didn't even know. For instance, he put a headsail on it was designed to be reefed -- on a roller furler that can't be reefed.

The reason I had halyard wrap damage on my forestay was because he hung his headsail from the spinnaker halyard.

There was a line that ran from the port side of the mast, through a sheave at the top, and down the other side. On both sides, the line was secured with two giant "knots" he just made up out of nowhere, each the size of a fist. I have a picture of that somewhere and named them "fustercluck knots."

From what I am reading and correct me if I am wrong, the PO of the boat was not dishonest so much as ignorant. To me there is a big difference between being blatantly dishonest and just not having the knowledge to provide accurate information.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Mimsy

From what I am reading and correct me if I am wrong, the PO of the boat was not dishonest so much as ignorant. To me there is a big difference between being blatantly dishonest and just not having the knowledge to provide accurate information.

No, he also misled me.

My favorite example is of the broken keel bolts. The guy said he was selling the boat because his wife no longer wanted their small children on the boat. They USED to go sailing with them, so ... hmmmm....

I had just finished my first, low-level, sailing lessons and knew very little about sailboats, so I took a knowledgeable friend. While I was wandering about he lifted the cockpit floorboards and saw two broken keel bolts and six very rusty ones. Meanwhile the owner was boasting to me, "this boat has the weight of TWO VOLKSWAGENS in its keel! She isn't going to tip over!"

Well she would have, after the keel fell off, right before she sank ... and I think he knew, and I think his wife knew, which was why she didn't want her children on the boat. But to give him the benefit of the doubt, I emailed the fellow and told him why we walked away. He claimed not to know but I doubt it, myself. We stopped looking at that point. Maybe there was something else as well, but there was *some* reason, who the husband said enjoyed sailing, didn't want her small children aboard.

As for the guy who owned this boat, at some point one has to own one's ignorance. He had owned the boat for about 10 years and should have learned *something* in that time. The engine went bad from electrolysis, acompletely avoidable event. It's not rocket science to keep zincs on your boat.

[Rakuflames]

Back to the OP: You can also get a good engine survey before you have the boat survey. Maybe you will still want the boat even if the engine is shot, but you'll certainly want to consider it in the price. Get it done by a certified marine engine mechanic.

[settlednomad]

Wow, there's a hell of a lot of new information there... thanks everyone.

@goboatingnow - Can I ask where you got this specific information? I scoured the internet and couldn't come up with anything as decisive as this! I'm not sure yet if no CE will be a show-stopper but it will give me something further to think of. My immediate intention is not to bring her to the UK and also not to sell her. However, things do change and I wouldn't want to be completely limited in my options. I'll either walk from it or decide that I don't need it and use it to negotiate a better price instead. We are both British (I do live in France but can use my dad's address in the UK to keep things simple) so will ask the owner if we can sort something out by way of keeping her, if only as a paper exercise, as being in or around British waters on and off. She has been to several European islands in the Caribbean so that might work too. It all seems a very complicated issue!!

@carlF - Many thanks for this. I have had a lot of communication with the surveyor and have asked him specifically to check the structural integrity above all else due to her history. The owner in all fairness told me that in '94 she had been caught in a gale in harbour and had suffered damage to the hull (two holes). She had been professionally repaired and resurveyed in 98/99. It was noted in the survey that she had been substantially rebuilt. I guess the fact that she is still afloat having crossed the Atlantic twice must mean something? However, this single issue is a little disconcerting! Anyone have much experience in GRP repairs? I'll look elsewhere in the forum for information on this actually. Of course, osmosis is the other thing I've asked the surveyor to look at. My inbox is full of emails containing information and lists of every single conceivable thing the owners have done to the boat. I have many more photos, most of which they have taken on my request. They seem a very genuine couple. Though fear not, I am not completely blinkered or see this as the only boat for me. I like her but won't throw my money at her if reports aren't good. Really desperate to get on the water though

@Rakuflames - The surveyor has also mentioned this to me and, if the initial survey and sea trial go well, then I will probably ask a marine mechanic to survey the engine. It is a Perkins 4236 with a PRM gearbox which was rebuilt in 2012 (gearbox not engine). I've heard that these engines are good, sturdy beasts though I am no expert at all.

Thanks again for all the support and information, it's very comforting to know this much knowledge, experience and expertise is out there.

Darren.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by LBH49520

Wow, there's a hell of a lot of new information there... thanks everyone.

@goboatingnow - Can I ask where you got this specific information? I scoured the internet and couldn't come up with anything as decisive as this! I'm not sure yet if no CE will be a show-stopper but it will give me something further to think of. My immediate intention is not to bring her to the UK and also not to sell her. However, things do change and I wouldn't want to be completely limited in my options. I'll either walk from it or decide that I don't need it and use it to negotiate a better price instead. We are both British (I do live in France but can use my dad's address in the UK to keep things simple) so will ask the owner if we can sort something out by way of keeping her, if only as a paper exercise, as being in or around British waters on and off. She has been to several European islands in the Caribbean so that might work too. It all seems a very complicated issue!!

@carlF - Many thanks for this. I have had a lot of communication with the surveyor and have asked him specifically to check the structural integrity above all else due to her history. The owner in all fairness told me that in '94 she had been caught in a gale in harbour and had suffered damage to the hull (two holes). She had been professionally repaired and resurveyed in 98/99. It was noted in the survey that she had been substantially rebuilt. I guess the fact that she is still afloat having crossed the Atlantic twice must mean something? However, this single issue is a little disconcerting! Anyone have much experience in GRP repairs? I'll look elsewhere in the forum for information on this actually. Of course, osmosis is the other thing I've asked the surveyor to look at. My inbox is full of emails containing information and lists of every single conceivable thing the owners have done to the boat. I have many more photos, most of which they have taken on my request. They seem a very genuine couple. Though fear not, I am not completely blinkered or see this as the only boat for me. I like her but won't throw my money at her if reports aren't good. Really desperate to get on the water though

@Rakuflames - The surveyor has also mentioned this to me and, if the initial survey and sea trial go well, then I will probably ask a marine mechanic to survey the engine. It is a Perkins 4236 with a PRM gearbox which was rebuilt in 2012 (gearbox not engine). I've heard that these engines are good, sturdy beasts though I am no expert at all.

Thanks again for all the support and information, it's very comforting to know this much knowledge, experience and expertise is out there.

Darren.

What I'm suggesting is that you do the engine survey FIRST. What if it's a deal killer? I didn't know to do it on this boat, but it WOULD have been a deal killer. And an engine survey is a lot cheaper than a marine survey. I'm just looking at ways for you to control the cost here in the few ways you can.

It can cost about $10k (or more if you're getting a big engine) to replace a diesel. that's a HUGE unexpected chunk of money and will limit what else you can do to upgrade/repair the boat.

[settlednomad]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

What I'm suggesting is that you do the engine survey FIRST. What if it's a deal killer? I didn't know to do it on this boat, but it WOULD have been a deal killer. And an engine survey is a lot cheaper than a marine survey. I'm just looking at ways for you to control the cost here in the few ways you can.

I appreciate the need to survey the engine but not sure I would put it before a boat survey. I'm guessing people don't shop for engines and then hope a half decent boat comes with it? I really like the boat and all that comes with her, I see her value being in the bit that floats and the electronics on board. Yes the engine is very important but they can be sourced should they be rough. Or rebuilt and fixed.

I have assumed that the engine isn't dead as they are continuing to use her on a daily basis and the surveyor will take her out on a sea trial. This won't tell me everything about the engine but it will say that it works and at what kind of power/speed she produces through the RPM range. There are never guarantees with anything mechanical, new or old.

Thank you for your comments

[settlednomad]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

B]Once she has been deemed exported she now must have a CE cert on import. If the original owners bring her back she could once in the EU before 1998, be exempt from CE[/B]. it matter not what date she was orginally built or where she was built , if you buy her when she is abroad , she must be re-imported subject to VAT(again) and RCD(CE)

Dave, does it help to know that the boat is UK registered and still flies the Red Ensign. She hasn't been reregistered in the Caribbean, she's always been SSR part III UK registered - does this help my case?

Many thanks.