Unseen - a Survey - a Visit - No Broker!

[settlednomad]

I would just like to share with you all the process I am currently involved in. Your views and opinions based on experience in these matters are most welcome...

Unseen - I have identified a boat I like while trawling all the boat sales websites. She is on Apollo Duck and is under a 'private' listing. She comes fully loaded (not that I was necessarily looking for this) and is of a good size. I have had extensive communication with the owner and all seems as it should be. The boat is part III registered. She is in the Caribbean - I live in France and work off shore.

Survey - I have sufficient information to hand to commission a survey. The survey will be conducted by a reputable local firm.

Visit - Should the survey be positive and not put me off, I will visit the boat in September to have my own sea trial and get a feel for the boat. I have made no formal offer as yet but have made it known to the owner that there will be no commitment to buy if either the survey proves negative or I simply don't like her (photos can be deceiving!). I'm aware that he also has he same right to sell her in the mean time - I'm happy with this.

No broker - This purchase will not be via a broker though we have already explored the upper and lower offer limits! Is this a big mistake to buy with out a broker?

Now, I realise this don't seem the most logical, or indeed the normal, way to buy a boat but I'm doing what I perceive to be the best thing possible given the circumstances. There will be a lot of information missing from the above that I have in my possession having spoken with the owner. What's the worse that can happen - I can lose the money used for a survey process - I won't lose sleep over this.

Can anyone see any glaringly obvious mistakes to my approach or indeed, have any suggestions I can use to make it go more smoothly or to protect me against pitfalls I've not accounted for?

Thank you in advance for any words of wisdom.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by LBH49520

I would just like to share with you all the process I am currently involved in. Your views and opinions based on experience in these matters are most welcome...

Unseen - I have identified a boat I like while trawling all the boat sales websites. She is on Apollo Duck and is under a 'private' listing. She comes fully loaded (not that I was necessarily looking for this) and is of a good size. I have had extensive communication with the owner and all seems as it should be. The boat is part III registered. She is in the Caribbean - I live in France and work off shore.

Survey - I have sufficient information to hand to commission a survey. The survey will be conducted by a reputable local firm.

Visit - Should the survey be positive and not put me off, I will visit the boat in September to have my own sea trial and get a feel for the boat. I have made no formal offer as yet but have made it known to the owner that there will be no commitment to buy if either the survey proves negative or I simply don't like her (photos can be deceiving!). I'm aware that he also has he same right to sell her in the mean time - I'm happy with this.

No broker - This purchase will not be via a broker though we have already explored the upper and lower offer limits! Is this a big mistake to buy with out a broker?

Now, I realise this don't seem the most logical, or indeed the normal, way to buy a boat but I'm doing what I perceive to be the best thing possible given the circumstances. There will be a lot of information missing from the above that I have in my possession having spoken with the owner. What's the worse that can happen - I can lose the money used for a survey process - I won't lose sleep over this.

Can anyone see any glaringly obvious mistakes to my approach or indeed, have any suggestions I can use to make it go more smoothly or to protect me against pitfalls I've not accounted for?

Thank you in advance for any words of wisdom.

I have bought and sold several boats without a broker involved. Just make sure you get at thorough survey by a good surveyor. And make sure you write a contract that spells out exactly what is included in the sale. Since you will be buying outside your country, you will need to be able to put the purchase money into a mutually acceptable escrow account (usually a lawyer).

Finally you will need to be absolutely sure the seller has a clean unencumbered title to the boat. And you will need to find out what, if any taxes you will need to pay to bring it into the EU.

You also need to find out if the boat is CE marked. If it isn't - don't buy it. The amount of work involved to get it CE marked is not worth it.

[barnakiel]

Unless the boat is a million dollars deal, you may be over-structured. In this case I would chuck in a broker, to get as much protection as one can get.

b.

[settlednomad]

Originally Posted by carstenb

You also need to find out if the boat is CE marked. If it isn't - don't buy it. The amount of work involved to get it CE marked is not worth it.

Already my naivety is being tested - I don't even know what this is...eeeeekkkk!!!

I have not had access to much paperwork but have been told she is TAX exempt for Europe. The boat is British registered and owned by a British couple.

A money exchange will probably take the form of a direct bank transfer (both having British accounts) though having an official contract drawn up would be a good idea. Thank you for this.

[haw1961]

I would see the boat and take it for a sea trial before paying for a survey. There may be obvious problems that you will see,before you pay for a survey.

[settlednomad]

Originally Posted by haw1961

I would see the boat and take it for a sea trial before paying for a survey. There may be obvious problems that you will see,before you pay for a survey.

Haw1961, I realise this would be the more obvious route to take in a perfect world but I'm a little bit stuck due to geographic location and work commitments. In the end it was a trade off between price of survey (still needed if sea trial was a success) v. price of return flights and accommodation (more than double). I really do like everything I've seen in the photos, her inventory is extensive and the price is good so I guess the survey is just to give me piece of mind. She requires work on the inside but that's great, I will enjoy personalising her.

[Mimsy]

Originally Posted by haw1961

I would see the boat and take it for a sea trial before paying for a survey. There may be obvious problems that you will see,before you pay for a survey.

Not only is that backwards of the usual way of doing things, its not the brightest of ideas to take an unknown to you boat out whose condition, level of maintenance and soundness are unknown. If you have the knowledge to survey it yourself to check for any glaring issues, you might be okay but I get the feeling the OP is new to boats and could possibly miss some serious problems.

Sailing is extraordinarily safe, if you have respect for how quickly things can go badly, the power of the forces at work and how a simple equipment failure can start a cascade of failures that end up becoming catastrophic. If the boat has been sitting at the dock for any length of time, my skeptical eyebrow raises up even higher.

Look at the boat in person first, then escrow, then survey, THEN sea trial. There is a reason this is the typical order of things. It protects both parties.

[settlednomad]

Carstenb - I have just been informed that the boat is not CE marked. Is this really a show-stopper? What can I not do with the boat without this? I have been looking over the net but can't find any specific answers as to why something must carry this mark. Is it more for a warm fuzzy feeling that the boat was constructed to official guidelines and testing? Or maybe just for resale in Europe? She was constructed in the US so is there an equivalent I should be looking for? She does have a HIN which is documented on her construction papers.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by haw1961

I would see the boat and take it for a sea trial before paying for a survey. There may be obvious problems that you will see,before you pay for a survey.

OP is abroad from the boat - likely cheaper to throw a Surveyor at her first than take a flight to give her the once over. Obvious a high risk that the boat not as expected - but that's buying boats for ya!

Part III is UK SSR (Small Ships Register), and is not evidence of title (for that you want the Bill of Sale to the Vendor, and ideally the chain back to day one - but the older the boat the less likely that is!.....but with UK boats nothing is 100% proof of title. Be cautious if the ink on the Bill of Sale is still wet , ideally also backed up by receipts and bills (boat stuff / moorings) addressed to the Vendor over a few years / time of ownership (most folks will keep proof of new stuff going onboard over the years - if still onboard perhaps Surveyor could be tasked to check / copy or summarise these?, he would not usually). Also old / expired SSR registrations are useful to build a picture of current and past ownership.

Also googling up the Vendors and seeing if can locate them onshore at an address (and work) would be a comfort, at least to me!

To take over Part III registration you will need to be a UK Resident (or "magick up" a UK address, via friends / family). UK Reg alone don't generate a VAT Bill, that is based on location of boat combined with your residence (if boat in the EU and you are an EU Resident then you get a bill on day of boat arrival - registration irrelevant)........if you are never keeping the Boat in the EU (including the bits in the Caribbean!) then VAT and RCD become irrelevant, except when talking price (as she is worth less as a smaller market to sell into - sums won't add up compared to a s/h boat that paid VAT and got RCD when originally made / sold)........if keeping in the EU then you do want to know what "VAT Exempt" means (and what paperwork supports that, likely it means the boat is outside the EU and a sale does not trigger a VAT bill on that day but does not mean she is immune to VAT!) and also what her RCD status is (and what paperwork the Vendor has)......if these an issue for you check before flying out (and ideally before paying for a Surveyor!), Vendor might be a bit reluctant to share docs via the internet at this early stage in the sale, but they can depersonalise them......odds are you may not know what you are looking at, but folks here will!

A contract would be very prudent, not so much for the usual reason of preventing the boat being sold from under you (as you comfortable with that) but to ensure that everyone knows what is expected of each other and that when you wire the cash that you have evidence of what it is for (and not simply a gift )......but that can come after the Surveyor and even your inspection, if no biggie for you. Ideally you and they (and boat) in the same place so can get hands on the Bill of Sale same time as the cash goes through and the boat can be handed over. Although a risk for them to send the Bill of Sale to you ahead of time, that only about being a PITA later if you don't send the money as you won't own the boat despite what the BOS says! Vendor might take a bit of convincing on that though! The risk for you is cash goes through, you get the BOS and reg docs in advance (or a promise of) and boat sails away . A Broker / Escrow Agent would reduce the risk of that / give you someone else to sue or break legs of.

To summarise, IMO you are in the ballpark - just take care.

[settlednomad]

Originally Posted by Mimsy

Look at the boat in person first, then escrow, then survey, THEN sea trial. There is a reason this is the typical order of things. It protects both parties.

Hi Mimsy. I am OK with boats but nowhere near confident enough to carry out a survey. I agree with your order above, though seeing it in person isn't practical at the moment. However, I will be seeing it in person and having a sea trial in it when I go to visit in September - assuming the survey goes well! There is no commitment for me to buy if I don't like what I see. If the survey doesn't prove to be too positive then all I have lost is the survey money which is a chance I am willing to take. It is a lot cheaper than a return flight to the UK (plus additional flights to France). I really like what I see and have read about the boat.

I am taking in all the info that you and the others have posted and, if at any point I feel that maybe I am doing the wrong thing then I will call a halt to it. At the moment it's the heart making all the decisions hence my post. I need dispassionate input from those with much more experience than me.

Fingers are crossed...

[msponer]

I really suggest you use a marine documentation company. It can be complicated when you change the flag of the vessel, and as your CE question indicates -- it's better to have a specialist in this domain tell you for sure than to search the Internet. It's not expensive, I think I paid less than $500.

They will make sure that everything is in order to register the boat in your name and home country, and generate lots of official looking paperwork that officials may want later ("Bill of Sale") and etc. Some can also function as escrow agents.

I feel that adding a broker at this late stage in the transaction could just make it more complicated.

[David_Old_Jersey]

me a slow typer / easily distracted!

RCD / CE same same, kinda. Others more expert than me (dull paperwork that prevents sale in EU to EU peeps if boat no have).

[Mimsy]

I think you are on the right track! Just get a good surveyor (ask for recommendations here, get copies of previous surveys done on other boats to see how thorough they are) and then proceed. If you cannot make step one happen, just go on to the next step.

I do not know how things are done in France, but in the US there are vessel documentation specialists who can tell you what you will need to do to register it properly. Its not free, but if you are buying internationally it could be worth every penny. I can't imagine that there isn't a similar service available in France or the UK. (missed the part about where it is currently registered)

[David_Old_Jersey]

Recreational Craft Directive

[msponer]

I've also been in your situation -- buying a boat half a world away.

I asked a local surveyor to 'take a look' and paid him for a few hours of his time. This wasn't a full survey, but it helped a lot: he emailed me over a hundred digital photos, and wrote a couple paragraphs of what he thought of the boat. He was later gracious enough to apply some of his 'take a look' fee to the survey. PM me with your email, and I can send you a copy, if you are interested.

Anyways, the pre-survey worked well for me. It turned out that once the floorboards were lifted, the electrical wiring and other details were photographed, the boat was priced for a much higher standard than I saw (in my opinion). So this was a big factor in my negotiations with the seller, and it was a lot more appropriate to negotiate the lower price casually over weeks and months before there was a purchase agreement, rather than after we had already agreed on a price and I had flown out there and paid for a full survey. I almost certainly would have not bought the boat if we were that far along and I suddenly realized that the seller and I were very far apart in expectations.