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cheoah · 01-01-2014, 19:51

No doubt the value is the contributions. So, maybe we can have the contributions without the forum, and the associated overhead.

Not....

There are no contributions without the service. The service is either of value, or not. And of course only a few will see it as a responsibility to pay for something they value. Since most don't, we have ads. Thats cool, I've only noticed them recently, when propane ranges, ladies boots, and whatever else I've searched for or bought pops up. I bought my wife some clothes so now the ripped gals of title nine and athleta adorn my page. And home/boat

Man I hope someone is making something off this, otherwise it doesn't have much of a future. If you could no longer access Cruisers Forum after tomorrow, at all, forever, you would be fine?

I would need another outlet to research, chit chat, or entertain myself with southern hemi. anchor CEO's with unique writing and quoting styles. And a host of other characters, who punctuate my CF experience. Thanks ya'll!

twistedtree · 02-01-2014, 07:29

Wait a minute;

1) Cruisers Forum appears to be based on vBulletin which is an open source software package for forums like cruisers forum. It is VERY widely used. I'm sure the proprietors are adding value, but dont kid yourself into thinking that they are toiling over thousands of lines of code.

2) i agree that the majority value is in our content, not the organizing forum technology. I don't think w should be asked to pay further by viewing ad spew the enrichen the proprietors, if they are indeed profiting from those ads.

3) i paid an annual fee to be a supporting member of CF, and that was supposed to be in lieu of ads. What happened to that? I'd be happy to pay a fee for 100% ad free browsing, but my $$ spent appear to only lessen the assault.

4) ads have a direct cost to all of us using the site. It is most evident when using a slow internet connection which is often the case while actually cruising. As I wait endlessly for the page to load, the browser is typically stalled on one of the many ad servers trying to insert their spew. The CF content is small. The ad content is large and is making CF unusable on slow links, and costing me more in metered service.

5) Perhaps the proprietors of Social Knowledge could a) stand up and identify themselves, b) explain their reasoning behind the ad and membership policies, and c) provide some accounting to reassure everyone that there isn't gross profiteering beyond covering the wadges and expenses associate with site operation. If there is profiteering, then I like to idea of sharing that with the people who create the site's value, namely the members.

Personally, i wont renew my supporting membership until the finances of CF show that its needed, especially in light of the ads.

sailorboy1 · 02-01-2014, 07:53

you know I just don't understand what this thread is really about, near as I can tell CF hasn't changed

what are all of you asking for?

Southern Star · 02-01-2014, 08:23

I agree, sailorboy. The site has always had advertising and it helps to offset the costs of operation as well as, yes, give the owner a profit. Frankly, IMO it is an excellent, well-organized site and it has international membership that provides incite into various issues that face world cruisers. I have no difficulty with a profit for the person who had the foresight to set it up and keep it going.

Brad

**boatman61** · 02-01-2014, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Star

I agree, sailorboy. The site has always had advertising and it helps to offset the costs of operation as well as, yes, give the owner a profit. Frankly, IMO it is an excellent, well-organized site and it has international membership that provides incite into various issues that face world cruisers. I have no difficulty with a profit for the person who had the foresight to set it up and keep it going.

Brad

As long as its a case of 'Making Money while Cruising'... no tears from me..

**Paul Elliott** · 02-01-2014, 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedtree

Personally, i wont renew my supporting membership until the finances of CF show that its needed, especially in light of the ads.

So, how much profit would meet with your approval?

Look, I've never paid for "Cruisers Forum Supporter" status (I have that because I'm a moderator), although I might consider it, just as I often pay for freeware that I find valuable. I wouldn't feel particularly guilty about not paying here, either. Ads are OK with me too, and if I couldn't stand the idea of paying, and couldn't stand the ads, I would stop logging in. If enough people felt that way, CF would cease to exist in its current format. This is the way things work. I approve.

I do volunteer here as a moderator, and trust me, we moderators spend *way* more time at it than $15 worth. And I volunteer on a site that is obviously making money for somebody else??? Sure. I find it a valuable site and I enjoy participating. I suspect that we all can think of other activities we enjoy and pay for, where someone else makes a handsome profit.

I've started companies before, and some of them have burned through a lot of time and money until ultimately failing. Others have succeeded very nicely. If the successful ones don't make enough profit to dramatically overcompensate for the failures, ultimately none of them get started. There are much easier ways to earn a living.

I know it's trite to say this, but if starting and running a site like CF is so easy, by all means please go right ahead. This isn't the only sailing-oriented site I frequent, and some of them are totally free, no ads, run by somebody in their spare time at their own expense. I would certainly visit another good sailing/cruising site.

Mike OReilly · 02-01-2014, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

So, how much profit would meet with your approval?
...
I do volunteer here as a moderator, and trust me, we moderators spend *way* more time at it than $15 worth. And I volunteer on a site that is obviously making money for somebody else??? Sure. I find it a valuable site and I enjoy participating. I suspect that we all can think of other activities we enjoy and pay for, where someone else makes a handsome profit.

I don't begrudge the owners for trying to make a profit Paul. I've inferred that the owner (Andy is it?) is a cruiser. I hope he's found a way to sustain his lifestyle via CF. And I am happy to know the mods get their upgrade for free ... g-d knows you/they work hard for it.

I do, however, get ticked off when some people start getting all moralistic about paying for the service fee, or about the righteousness of making a profit. This type of discussion group pre-dates CF, and indeed predates the commercialized web. Like so much of our society, commercial interests have commandeered what used to be a public resource. In doing so they've brought added value, but they've also brought the need for profit. Like with most decisions in life, it's a double-edged sword.

As others have pointed out, CF is based on vBulletin, a private bulletin board software tool than is highly customizable and is supported by a vibrant developer community. I've licensed vBulletin in the past, and have run forums. It's not that hard to do, nor does the license cost much ($250 for a new one right now). Since the mods work for free (but should be paid!), server space would be the highest cost here. I'd guess it would be in the high hundreds of dollars each year, so the costs are real, but they are not huge.

CF clearly makes it's money from the ad and data deals it has, mostly with Google services. No one except Google makes much money from this, but given the high activity on this site, I bet CF does a lot better than most. And that is due to the contributors.

So yes, it is a symbiotic relationship. Both sides depend on each other. Neither is getting a "free" deal out of it. So pay the money if you want the added services, want the prestige, or just want to be nice. But leave out the moralizing.

**boatman61** · 02-01-2014, 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I don't begrudge the owners for trying to make a profit Paul. I've inferred that the owner (Andy is it?) is a cruiser. I hope he's found a way to sustain his lifestyle via CF. And I am happy to know the mods get their upgrade for free ... g-d knows you/they work hard for it.

I do, however, get ticked off when some people start getting all moralistic about paying for the service fee, or about the righteousness of making a profit. This type of discussion group pre-dates CF, and indeed predates the commercialized web. Like so much of our society, commercial interests have commandeered what used to be a public resource. In doing so they've brought added value, but they've also brought the need for profit. Like with most decisions in life, it's a double-edged sword.

As others have pointed out, CF is based on vBulletin, a private bulletin board software tool than is highly customizable and is supported by a vibrant developer community. I've licensed vBulletin in the past, and have run forums. It's not that hard to do, nor does the license cost much ($250 for a new one right now). Since the mods work for free (but should be paid!), server space would be the highest cost here. I'd guess it would be in the high hundreds of dollars each year, so the costs are real, but they are not huge.

CF clearly makes it's money from the ad and data deals it has, mostly with Google services. No one except Google makes much money from this, but given the high activity on this site, I bet CF does a lot better than most. And that is due to the contributors.

So yes, it is a symbiotic relationship. Both sides depend on each other. Neither is getting a "free" deal out of it. So pay the money if you want the added services, want the prestige, or just want to be nice. But leave out the moralizing.

+A1...

CF and its great members have been good to/for me.. even if they do ban me now and then..

**Paul Elliott** · 02-01-2014, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

[...] So pay the money if you want the added services, want the prestige, or just want to be nice. But leave out the moralizing.

Mike, I was going to lay out my bona fides (been using the internet since the ARPANET days, etc), but in the long run that doesn't matter. Anyway, I agree with most of what you are saying, and don't strongly disagree with the rest

I do completely agree about the moralizing. CF is set up so members can participate without paying a cent. There is no shame or dishonor in using it just like that, and I hope that nothing on this site implies otherwise.

Equally, there is no dishonor in the CF owners making whatever profit they can on the site. If we don't like the arrangement we can go elsewhere.

**JPA Cate** · 02-01-2014, 12:10

Hi, everyone,

I wrote in a long time ago saying that I thought what had made people feel angry was the sense of having a privilege taken away when they had done nothing wrong.

Since the notifying e-mail reached so many just at Christmas time when most of us are involved heavily in social commitments, there was also not time for people who had been using their unlimited message storage to delete three years worth of messages, some of which were retained because they contained "useful" information that they wanted to keep. Such a person would have to re-read all the messages, transfer the keepers to other storage, and delete down to the tidy inboxes the un-privileged ones among us have to maintain. This factor, too may be part of the disgruntlement.

I think the negative reaction is one of the unintended consequences of trying to do something nice for frequent contributors, or possibly it was a marketing decision that has rebounded unpleasantly.

I'm sure everyone here doesn't like the feeling of being punished when they are innocent of wrongdoing, and when that punishment adds inconvenience, well it's no wonder folks are upset.

Ann

rebel heart · 03-01-2014, 08:23

To me one of the weirdest things about cruisersforum.com is the "wizard of oz" aspect where there are people behind the scenes calling shots and never really asking any of the peasantry (a.k.a. the people who generate all the traffic and value) their opinion.

There's Social Knowledge, in the business (apparently) of making forums and generating revenue on those, the moderators with their hidden forum, and then us unwashed proletariat who should be happy with what they get, thank you very much. The rules, judgements, decisions, appeals, and final authority take place behind the scenes and are not open to discussion.

Cruisersforum.com overall is a great net positive so please keep that in prospective; I'm just trying to offer up some constructive criticism.

**boatman61** · 03-01-2014, 08:35

I'm now curious if my Green Bar and privileges?? will re-appear as fast as they disappeared... 48hrs and counting...

Blue Crab · 03-01-2014, 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

I'm now curious if my Green Bar and privileges?? will re-appear as fast as they disappeared... 48hrs and counting...

Heh, that curiosity and $15 will turn you green in a jiffy. I actually do miss the ability to have fun with the subtitle line.

I can also remember that a few mega-posters were not thrilled to be left out of the free awards.

Sometimes one is the bug, other times the windshield as we all know. Now let's go save that planet!

**boatman61** · 03-01-2014, 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Heh, that curiosity and $15 will turn you green in a jiffy. I actually do miss the ability to have fun with the subtitle line.

I can also remember that a few mega-posters were not thrilled to be left out of the free awards.

Sometimes one is the bug, other times the windshield as we all know. Now let's go save that planet!

$15.01 was PayPal'd 48hrs ago... hence the curiosity...