Flag: USA or AUS?

[Robin3]

I'm a Brit, married to an American and permanentresident alien in Florida. our ( French built) boat is federally documented by USCG in my wife's name as I cannot do so, even as a 'legal alien' and she is the American citizen ( apart from which she is otherwise perfect). I could not register the boat in the UK as we no longer have a UK address and mail boxes are not acceptable. I Understood also that we needed an internationally recognised call sign and MMSI for our DSC radios and AIS transceiver for use outside US waters, even in the Bahamas. and those are only issued for USCG federal documented vessels not simple State registered ones. I know we could just have obtained, like many do, a MMSI via BoatUS but that one would not be listed as international and it's details circulated to all countries and entered on their databases.

Too bloody complicated by far, but we like being legal.

[beneteau-500]

I will give you a simple answer as a Aussie flag it British and don't even worry about the vat problem and I know all these others on here will say I am wrong but I am Not

I would never flag my yacht with an Australian flag why pay $1200 odd dollars. When British is £25 last time I paid 2 yrs ago which last for 5 yrs

I have never had any problems doing it this way the only time I have had probs when I sailed back last yr the customs & border dicks tried to shaft me but they couldn't

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

I will give you a simple answer as a Aussie flag it British and don't even worry about the vat problem and I know all these others on here will say I am wrong but I am Not

I would never flag my yacht with an Australian flag why pay $1200 odd dollars. When British is £25 last time I paid 2 yrs ago which last for 5 yrs

I have never had any problems doing it this way the only time I have had probs when I sailed back last yr the customs & border dicks tried to shaft me but they couldn't

Border Farce gave you grief over your flag? Golly, I had none of that... they just wanted to know where the drugs were stashed... flew in a sniffer dog just for me

I'm not proud... I use my pommie passport all the time in South America... Saves about $100 give or take every time I enter either Chile or Arg by air.( makes no diff when you enter by sea)

Ping the sometime Pom

[LACHLANC]

I am an Australian who has recently bought a yacht located in the EU and i looked at registering it in Australia and there are four areas that really put me off:

1. Cost - the cost is clearly prohibitive even if it's a one off expense that will take many, many years to be beneficial (particularly when you look at the net present value of small yearly payments for other registers);

2. Marking - as with many other registers, a vessel must be marked in a specific manner. What is different with the Australian register is that they insist the vessel's name is marked on either side of the bow and "the letters shall be upright sans serif block capital of a height of not less than 100mm and have a thickness of stroke from 20% to 25% of letter height". During searches for yachts I saw images of Australian registed yachts with correct markings and I thought the look of the bow markings was simply horrible;

3. Yacht measurement requirements for an Australian registered vessel are more complex & less "standard" than many other registers, particularly if you aren't able to visit the vessel;

4. Potential impact on re-sale - if you are likely to sell the vessel before you make it back to Australia I think an Aust flag will act as an impediment to sale compared to many other flags. My logic is that the number of people who are eligible to purchase without changing the register is likely to be fewer for an Australian registered vesel than for another flag that has a larger pool of potential purchasers who could purchase and use the same flag. There aren't many Australians wanting to buy in, say, The Med compared to the number of people who are EU citizens. Another related issue is a perception of difficulty in de-registering from Aust is sold to a non-Australian. It may not be difficult to do but I suspect someone living in the EU is going to perceive it as somewhat difficult given time zone differences and the lack of knowledge of something so far away.

The best outcome I found was a register that had a broad range of eligibility, including EU citizens and other citizens from outside the EU. I looked at Jersey, Gurnsey or Isle of Man and found a much better outcome for my circumstances.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by LACHLANC

I am an Australian who has recently bought a yacht located in the EU and i looked at registering it in Australia and there are four areas that really put me off:

1. Cost - the cost is clearly prohibitive even if it's a one off expense that will take many, many years to be beneficial (particularly when you look at the net present value of small yearly payments for other registers);

2. Marking - as with many other registers, a vessel must be marked in a specific manner. What is different with the Australian register is that they insist the vessel's name is marked on either side of the bow and "the letters shall be upright sans serif block capital of a height of not less than 100mm and have a thickness of stroke from 20% to 25% of letter height". During searches for yachts I saw images of Australian registed yachts with correct markings and I thought the look of the bow markings was simply horrible;

3. Yacht measurement requirements for an Australian registered vessel are more complex & less "standard" than many other registers, particularly if you aren't able to visit the vessel;

4. Potential impact on re-sale - if you are likely to sell the vessel before you make it back to Australia I think an Aust flag will act as an impediment to sale compared to many other flags. My logic is that the number of people who are eligible to purchase without changing the register is likely to be fewer for an Australian registered vesel than for another flag that has a larger pool of potential purchasers who could purchase and use the same flag. There aren't many Australians wanting to buy in, say, The Med compared to the number of people who are EU citizens. Another related issue is a perception of difficulty in de-registering from Aust is sold to a non-Australian. It may not be difficult to do but I suspect someone living in the EU is going to perceive it as somewhat difficult given time zone differences and the lack of knowledge of something so far away.

The best outcome I found was a register that had a broad range of eligibility, including EU citizens and other citizens from outside the EU. I looked at Jersey, Gurnsey or Isle of Man and found a much better outcome for my circumstances.

This is not correct. You have perhaps a point with the cost, though that's clearly subjective.

Marking's for a vessel under 12m is never an issue, as long as you have the name on both sides of the Bow.

I have no idea what you mean by 3. ? Can you explain that?

And there is NO impact on sale. It will make no difference to a foreign buyer whether it's listed or not. As for disposal you simply fill out a Bill of sale, with the buyer's name and address like you do a car, fill out the notification of sale and post it in. Simple. The buyer doesn't have to do anything if they are foreign or overseas.

[CarlF]

The only advantage I know of for a USCG registration over a state registration for a pleasure craft is that a CG first ships mortgage can be attached. Lenders require this. If you have no mortgage this doesn't matter.

I believe the US FCC ships radiotelephone application (form 605) will take either CG or state number. Same with EPIRB registration. Same with MMSI for AIS.

The DTOPS vessel decal from Homeland Security to clear US customs requires only one of -- CG documentation, state registration, or a HIN hull number (how's that for securing the borders!)

State registration does require numbers on the bow.

You can fly the US flag. You can also fly no flag.

We've seen ample evidence that the Navy and CG of virtually every nation will respond to distress or pirate attack without regard to flag.

For the OP to just renew his Delaware registration sure seems like the easiest (and least expansive) path.

[LACHLANC]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

This is not correct. You have perhaps a point with the cost, though that's clearly subjective.

Marking's for a vessel under 12m is never an issue, as long as you have the name on both sides of the Bow.

I have no idea what you mean by 3. ? Can you explain that?

And there is NO impact on sale. It will make no difference to a foreign buyer whether it's listed or not. As for disposal you simply fill out a Bill of sale, with the buyer's name and address like you do a car, fill out the notification of sale and post it in. Simple. The buyer doesn't have to do anything if they are foreign or overseas.

Thanks for the reply Rustic Charm. I'm the first to acknowledge I have much to learn about everything to do with long term cruising (the more I read the more I realise what there is to learn!). I'm not sure we're on the same wavelength though, so I'll try to answer your Qs and explain my thinking:

Under point 1 - With cost maybe x10 versus some other flags I was simply saying I thought the cost was prohibitive. I also said there is a point well down the track where there would be a break-even but from my perspective it was a long way into the future.

Under point 2 - All I was saying that I think the marking requirement of font type and letter size and letter width for names on either side of the bow looked horrible. While some people might not be concerned with how it looks on their vessel, which is fine, I don't like the look so if I had a choice it was another reason to look elsewhere.
My reading of the "Application for Registration notes" doc from AMSA is that ships of <24m of tonnage length "can be registered" and it also mentions that small vessels of <12m are "entitled to be registered" under certain criteria. On the Marking Note doc from AMSA I couldn't see any reference to Marking for ships of different lengths - my understanding is that the specified bow markings are required for all vessels placed on the register.

Under point 3 - looking at two measurement certificate forms in front of me (one for Aust & one for another flag), there is more detail req'd in the Aust form. One example is the Aust requirement for Moulded depth amidships which is defined as "the vertical distance measured (to two decimal places) from the top of the keel to the top of the underside of the under deck at side" with a further reference made in this section to Reg. 2 of the Shipping Registration Regulations 1981). I mentioned this as I thought that for some people located separately from their boat this type of measurement may be difficult.

Under point 4 - what I was trying to convey here was that, from my perspective, if I have anything that might make a prospective purchaser less likely to buy one boat over another I would try to avoid it. What I could have said better was that I wasn't indicating I thought everyone would think this way. All you need is for some people (one person) to think this for it to potentially make a difference. If the boat was next sold in Europe I can understand there being a prospective purchaser who might regard a transfer of ownership on the same register as less of a nuisance than having to go through the registration process on a new register. Some people might say it's not difficult to re-register a boat but my point is that if there were any people who regarded it as a bit of a nuisance it might increase you prospective market by having a flag that encompassed more prospective buyers.

My reason for choosing to not register in Australia was really a combination of all of the above rather than any one point being a "deal breaker". As with everything, there will always be people who think differently (as they are entitled to do). I think it would be a boring world if we all thought the same on everything!

[avb3]

Originally Posted by CarlF

The only advantage I know of for a USCG registration over a state registration for a pleasure craft is that a CG first ships mortgage can be attached. Lenders require this. If you have no mortgage this doesn't matter.

I believe the US FCC ships radiotelephone application (form 605) will take either CG or state number. Same with EPIRB registration. Same with MMSI for AIS.

The DTOPS vessel decal from Homeland Security to clear US customs requires only one of -- CG documentation, state registration, or a HIN hull number (how's that for securing the borders!)

State registration does require numbers on the bow.

You can fly the US flag. You can also fly no flag.

We've seen ample evidence that the Navy and CG of virtually every nation will respond to distress or pirate attack without regard to flag.

For the OP to just renew his Delaware registration sure seems like the easiest (and least expansive) path.

Except that he will taking the chance that a country he visits get their panties in a wad because the boat is not registered to a nation.

Yes, most will not have a problem, but just like most didn't have a problem with a zarpe on Mexico's Gulf coast, that is no longer the case.

Why tempt problems?

[David B]

For what it's worth, we have been cruising the Med now since 2012, are Australian registered, and VAT status is unpaid. It is typical that we pay more in this country for registration, but look at it another way - the registration fee is insignificant in comparison to what you paid for your 440, and once you have paid it, that's it.


We have been boarded in France to have all of our papers checked (and I hear France is particularly hot on this). Next to us was a yacht owned by a Turkish family, and they were USA flagged. I did wonder how they managed this, and perhaps the officials did too, as they spent a lot longer on their boat than ours.


I have not taken out (perhaps one day) Australian citizenship (Kiwi) and the only thing that meant was that my wife/First Mate (Australian by birth) needs to hold the majority of shares as noted on the Australian General Shipping Register.


When a boat is Australian registered, it receives legally recognisable Australian nationality, evidenced by its registration certificate, and as such is granted Australian protection on the high seas and in foreign ports.


Also, your vessel ownership cannot be overturned by the holder of an earlier interest unless you had notice of that interest when you purchased the vessel. The title of your vessel is recorded on the Australian Register.


Note also that it is an offence for an Australian-owned vessel to sail to a foreign port unless it is registered on the Australian General Shipping Register. Vessels purchased overseas by Australians must be registered before they sail for Australia or another foreign country.


As to embassies, in regard to yourself and crew, I understand that is totally dependent on your nationality/passport you are travelling under.


Again, for what it is worth, I suggest you go for Australian registration ASAP.


On the social side, from our experience, we regularly have people having seen our Australian flag come up to us for a chat - surprising how many Aussies are over there.


I hope all that helps.

[Jman]

And to say it again. If you are not a US citizen, you can't USCG document a boat in the US. If this is what you are looking for it leaves Oz as your only choice between the two. If you just want state registration, you can do that, but it likely negates any strength in the flag that you were asking about, and in some case the US flag might be considered a negative.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[LACHLANC]

Thanks to David B for going a bit further. The key phrase that stuck out for me was "it is an offence for an Australian-owned vessel to sail to [or from] a foreign port unless it is registered on the Australian General Shipping Register". Unless someone has dual nationality any Australian citizen is obliged to register a vessel they own under an Australian Flag before they sail to or from a foreign port [refer to Aust Shipping Registration Act 1981 as amended Part II Div 1 Subdiv A s12 ] .
The OP BRob may be able to register under his UK citizenship if he owns a majority of the shares in the boat.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by LACHLANC

Thanks to David B for going a bit further. The key phrase that stuck out for me was "it is an offence for an Australian-owned vessel to sail to [or from] a foreign port unless it is registered on the Australian General Shipping Register". Unless someone has dual nationality any Australian citizen is obliged to register a vessel they own under an Australian Flag before they sail to or from a foreign port [refer to Aust Shipping Registration Act 1981 as amended Part II Div 1 Subdiv A s12 ] .
The OP BRob may be able to register under his UK citizenship if he owns a majority of the shares in the boat.

However, just let me add briefly, that our vessel was formerly an Australian registered vessel--AND HER AT-THE-TIME NAME WAS IN ABOUT 8 " HIGH LETTERS ON THE QUARTERS, in rather nice graphics, not on the bow.

She had to be de-registered after we bought her, because only an Australian citizen may own an Australian registered vessel.

Ann

PS. We [as Yanks] have been told to apply to the British Embassy wherever, if you want mercy and help. No idea how it would all work out.

A.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by LACHLANC

Thanks for the reply Rustic Charm. I'm the first to acknowledge I have much to learn about everything to do with long term cruising (the more I read the more I realise what there is to learn!). I'm not sure we're on the same wavelength though, so I'll try to answer your Qs and explain my thinking:

Under point 1 - With cost maybe x10 versus some other flags I was simply saying I thought the cost was prohibitive. I also said there is a point well down the track where there would be a break-even but from my perspective it was a long way into the future.

Under point 2 - All I was saying that I think the marking requirement of font type and letter size and letter width for names on either side of the bow looked horrible. While some people might not be concerned with how it looks on their vessel, which is fine, I don't like the look so if I had a choice it was another reason to look elsewhere.
My reading of the "Application for Registration notes" doc from AMSA is that ships of <24m of tonnage length "can be registered" and it also mentions that small vessels of <12m are "entitled to be registered" under certain criteria. On the Marking Note doc from AMSA I couldn't see any reference to Marking for ships of different lengths - my understanding is that the specified bow markings are required for all vessels placed on the register.

Under point 3 - looking at two measurement certificate forms in front of me (one for Aust & one for another flag), there is more detail req'd in the Aust form. One example is the Aust requirement for Moulded depth amidships which is defined as "the vertical distance measured (to two decimal places) from the top of the keel to the top of the underside of the under deck at side" with a further reference made in this section to Reg. 2 of the Shipping Registration Regulations 1981). I mentioned this as I thought that for some people located separately from their boat this type of measurement may be difficult.

Under point 4 - what I was trying to convey here was that, from my perspective, if I have anything that might make a prospective purchaser less likely to buy one boat over another I would try to avoid it. What I could have said better was that I wasn't indicating I thought everyone would think this way. All you need is for some people (one person) to think this for it to potentially make a difference. If the boat was next sold in Europe I can understand there being a prospective purchaser who might regard a transfer of ownership on the same register as less of a nuisance than having to go through the registration process on a new register. Some people might say it's not difficult to re-register a boat but my point is that if there were any people who regarded it as a bit of a nuisance it might increase you prospective market by having a flag that encompassed more prospective buyers.

My reason for choosing to not register in Australia was really a combination of all of the above rather than any one point being a "deal breaker". As with everything, there will always be people who think differently (as they are entitled to do). I think it would be a boring world if we all thought the same on everything!

ok I'm following you.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

However, just let me add briefly, that our vessel was formerly an Australian registered vessel--AND HER AT-THE-TIME NAME WAS IN ABOUT 8 " HIGH LETTERS ON THE QUARTERS, in rather nice graphics, not on the bow.

She had to be de-registered after we bought her, because only an Australian citizen may own an Australian registered vessel.

Ann

PS. We [as Yanks] have been told to apply to the British Embassy wherever, if you want mercy and help. No idea how it would all work out.

A.

I didn't know you two were yanks?

[Ozwizz54]

Just as a simple clarification about correct flag etiquette (and legal requirements)...
... the flag under which you sail has nothing to do with the nationality of the owner (or crew). It is all about the nationality of the VESSEL'S REGISTRATION. If, for instance, your boat is registered in Panama as a Spanish citizen, it flies the Panamanian flag off the stern. Or, just to be very correct, an Aussie with a Luxembourg registered yacht will fly a Luxembourg maritime flag (different from the national flag). For Brit and Aussie registered vessels this means their respective red ensigns - not the regular national flags which is the case for most nationally registered yachts. State registered yachts should fly the national maritime flag or the national flag whichever is legally correct as mentioned above.

And the correct size of flag is 1" per foot of the vessel LOA.

David