Flag Etiquette Question

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

OK lassie, your knuckles have already been rapped once

Ooooh, ouch!
Particularly painful when my knuckles were still stinging from last time. I must remember to hide that hand next time .

OK, the info is there buried further down, but under the heading of 'Australian National Flag' the info is pitifully incomplete. It does not included registered private vessels, mentioning use only by unregistered ones (and the navy of course).

In the light of the comments about using the National Ensign as the correct courtesy flag when visiting a foreign country, I am fast losing respect for this document. It is only the fact that it includes the Gin Pennant that redeems it .

[DoubleWhisky]

In Poland we show the national flags of charterer/guests/crew under the portside spreader. On the other hand the sailors from other baltic countries follow the rule described by carstenb - in home waters of the boat the "crew flags" are hoisted under right spreader. I saw also a lot of boats with Dutch crews following this principle.

When my Dearest started sailing with me, the meaning of the flags (arranged in Polish way - similar to British) was between first thing she learnt.
One day we were moored at Katapola in Amorgos. Beata went to the deck, looked around and told me:
"Interesting thing! Did You know the Dutch invaded and conquered Greece?"

"WHAT???"

"Look around - there are four boats around displaying Dutch flags under starboard spreaders!"

Of course all those boats were chartered and flew the flags of Greece on primary positions, so were in their home waters

To add some confusion - I believe the Greek way of displaying the charterer/crew flag is the same as Baltic.
As I noticed, when Greek charter company provide the flag of charterer nationality, it is usually hoisted under the starboard spreader.
It could be the real reason for the Dutch chartered boats, I do not know really

Cheers,

Tomasz

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

I was tought (and in old days the schooling and training for sailing was extremely serious in Poland) that the courtesy flag should be always a natonal flag of the visited country, not the merchant or other ensign.
The rationale behind this was: the ensign is to show the nationality of the ship bearing it, the courtesy flag is to the honour of visited country.
The exception was possible for warships, paying official visits, to hoist the naval ensign of visited fleet to her honour, by permission granted by proper flag officer of visited fleet.

By the way, I use national flags for crew nationalities for the same reason - the are flags to give a honour to the nationality of somebody on board, not to show the nationality of ship.

Cheers,
Tomasz

Makes sense to me, but isn't it strange that this seemingly simple question of what flag to fly as a courtesy flag is producing such conflicting results. Particularly as some countries kick up such a fuss about it!

Originally Posted by carstenb

Sailing into Gilbralter a couple of yeras ago, the marina hand who pointed out our slip and helped with the lines, told us ni no uncerntain terms that the very first thing we had to do was hoist our british courtesy flag ("and I mean before you do anything else!")

Later that day I saw a notice from the Port Captain on the board by the harbour office.

"Any boat not flying the correct courtesy flag is to be denied docking and told to leave the port and not return until they have learned to show the proper respect"

So some do take this very seriously.

Carsten, I am now curious. What courtesy flag did you fly in this instance! The Union Flag or the Red Duster?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by StuM

See Post #193 which gives the official stance according to the "Awards & Culture Branch, Dept of Prime Minister & Cabinet" which I would suggest trumps your reference

Really

A brochure from the Prime Minister (or at least his department) compared to "Yachting Flag Lore" written by a Lt Col. with assistance from a Col. plus an expert vexillologist and vexillographer. All for a RAN Sailing Association. My money won't be on the PM's department but I accept you might have a higher opinion of pollies than I!

But I digress, this is really the Lassie's reference and I would normally let her defend it however her knuckles are somewhat bruised already, so I step in...

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

........
In the light of the comments about using the National Ensign as the correct courtesy flag when visiting a foreign country, I am fast losing respect for this document. It is only the fact that it includes the Gin Pennant that redeems it .

We are all in agreement with the GP I believe

[goboatingnow]

Note to Fuzzy wuzzies: The Union flag is not a Sea Flag, it is a land flag, hence it has no place aboard any yacht. The courtesy flag of a nation is its maritime ensign, NOT its national flag ( listen up those entering italian waters !!)

As to flying the Union flag aboard foreign yachts, my position stands that the Pilot Jack has become the de-facto flag if one wishes to "fly the flag"

Dave - thinking about flying the gin pennant, instead I welded to a computer

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

We are all in agreement with the GP I believe

Wottie, one thing yet another thing that is puzzling me is why LtCol Starrett kept referring to it as a pendant, not a pennant. Have you heard this term before in relation to bunting? I'm a bit slow getting the hang of all the correct terminology and I don't want my knuckles to be rapped yet again .

Is pendant another word for pennant?

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Note to Fuzzy wuzzies: The Union flag is not a Sea Flag, it is a land flag, hence it has no place aboard any yacht. The courtesy flag of a nation is its maritime ensign, NOT its national flag ( listen up those entering italian waters !!)

As to flying the Union flag aboard foreign yachts, my position stands that the Pilot Jack has become the de-facto flag if one wishes to "fly the flag"

Dave - thinking about flying the gin pennant, instead I welded to a computer

Oi! Who are you calling a fuzzy wuzzy?

Gin flag will be raised here in another hour and six minutes, so you have missed tonight's session. A warm welcome would be extended any other time you could make it though .

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Oi! Who are you calling a fuzzy wuzzy?

Gin flag won't be raised here for another hour and six minutes, so you have missed tonight's session. A warm welcome would be extended any other time you could make it though .

A royal proclamation to except certain esteemed Cf members from Fuzzy Wuzzy status is in preparation, standby.

Since the sun is well over the yard-arm, its Gin time

I have recently been converted to the charms of Henderson Gin and Cucumber - absolutely fab. For historical reasons I support the quaint notion that Irish whiskey is best, but by God ,the Scots make a fine Gin.!!!!

dave

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The Union flag is not a Sea Flag, it is a land flag, hence it has no place aboard any yacht. The courtesy flag of a nation is its maritime ensign, NOT its national flag ( listen up those entering italian waters !!)

Funnily enough I just checked some five random web pages of UK based chandleries.
All offer national flags as courtesy flags (Italy included)

Probably the best advice is to check for local practices as thoroughly as possible in advance
The thing is customary, not statutory in most of countries and we have a saying here: Another country, another custom

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Funnily enough I just checked some five random web pages of UK based chandleries.
All offer national flags as courtesy flags (Italy included)

Probably the best advice is to check for local practices as thoroughly as possible in advance
The thing is customary, not statutory in most of countries and we have a saying here: Another country, another custom

I don't think id take chandleries as a good guide for anything


from the Yately Sailing club site

"
Courtesy flags are normally the maritime flag of the country which in most cases will be that same as the National Flag (e.g. France, USA, Netherlands) others may be the National Flag defaced with a device (e.g. Italy, Finland, Morocco) and others may be a totally different flag (e.g. UK, Australia, New Zealand). If you are planning to visit a foreign country, find out the correct maritime flag from some of the sources shown at the end of this article. "


Malta is one of the exceptions , where the national rather then maritime ensign should be flown as a courtesy flag.

[carstenb]

SWL- Here is the link to the Weilbach courtesy flag page. The word Gæsteflag means courtesy flag in Danish

Køb alle europæiske flag online hos Weilbach A/S

Entering Gilbraltar, we flew the Jack (see link above). However, I suppose were we to have been completely correct, we should have flown the flag of Gilbralter as shown below:

By the way Double Whiskey - thank you for the support - I was beginning to feel a little lonely. I can see a boat on the other side of the harbour and the sun is above its yardarm - so it is time for a gin

[Hoofsmit]

SWL .... You are ..... as ever totally correct, but I was suggesting some confusion and possibly it's source.

I personally wouldn't fly anything for someone on board unless they were someone of titled importance, that is to say, they had a flag that represented them, such as royalty or a high ranking naval person or a commodore of a visiting yc.

The charter world does seem to have turned this into some sort of " if I suck up to them enough I might get a bigger tip"

But i am from the " less is more " culture and flag waving on my crafts were limited





Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

A royal proclamation to except certain esteemed Cf members from Fuzzy Wuzzy status is in preparation, standby.

Since the sun is well over the yard-arm, its Gin time

I have recently been converted to the charms of Henderson Gin and Cucumber - absolutely fab. For historical reasons I support the quaint notion that Irish whiskey is best, but by God ,the Scots make a fine Gin.!!!!

dave

That's a new one to me.
We have Tanqueray and Bombay Saphhire on offer. G&T preparation is a fine art on board left to my admiral. He freezes the tonic just enough to get it slightly thick, but not too much or tiny shards of ice form. No ice cubes are needed then to dilute it .

You haven't manage to completely distract me though. Why do you think the Pilot/Civil Jack is the right one for foreign ships to fly on their port halyard when they have a UK guest on board? To start with, isn't a jack only flown from the jackstaff? You have me totally befuddled with the terminology now. Hard enough sorting out pennants from pendants, let alone jacks that aren't really jacks .

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

To start with, isn't a jack only flown from the jackstaff? You have me totally befuddled with the terminology now. Hard enough sorting out pennants from pendants, let alone jacks that aren't really jacks .

This is how the brits won the Nepoleanatic wars. They couldn't baffle them with their brilliance - so they befuddled them with their ********

If it is any consolation - I'm confused also-about which british flag to fly

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by carstenb

This is how the brits won the Nepoleanatic wars. They couldn't baffle them with their brilliance - so they befuddled them with their ********

If it is any consolation - I'm confused also-about which british flag to fly

Carsten, don't feel badly, Weilbach are also terribly confused.

In their blurb about courtesy flags on the English version of their website, they say to use the national maritime flag of the host country as a courtesy flag.

http://www.weilbach.com/products/fla...national-flags
Click on the little triangle next to 'Open' under the map and this is what you find: