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13-08-2014, 04:54
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#226
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
OK lassie, your knuckles have already been rapped once
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Ooooh, ouch!
Particularly painful when my knuckles were still stinging from last time. I must remember to hide that hand next time .
OK, the info is there buried further down, but under the heading of 'Australian National Flag' the info is pitifully incomplete. It does not included registered private vessels, mentioning use only by unregistered ones (and the navy of course).
In the light of the comments about using the National Ensign as the correct courtesy flag when visiting a foreign country, I am fast losing respect for this document. It is only the fact that it includes the Gin Pennant that redeems it .
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"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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13-08-2014, 05:06
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#227
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
In Poland we show the national flags of charterer/guests/crew under the portside spreader. On the other hand the sailors from other baltic countries follow the rule described by carstenb - in home waters of the boat the "crew flags" are hoisted under right spreader. I saw also a lot of boats with Dutch crews following this principle.
When my Dearest started sailing with me, the meaning of the flags (arranged in Polish way - similar to British) was between first thing she learnt.
One day we were moored at Katapola in Amorgos. Beata went to the deck, looked around and told me:
"Interesting thing! Did You know the Dutch invaded and conquered Greece?"
"WHAT???"
"Look around - there are four boats around displaying Dutch flags under starboard spreaders!"
Of course all those boats were chartered and flew the flags of Greece on primary positions, so were in their home waters
To add some confusion - I believe the Greek way of displaying the charterer/crew flag is the same as Baltic.
As I noticed, when Greek charter company provide the flag of charterer nationality, it is usually hoisted under the starboard spreader.
It could be the real reason for the Dutch chartered boats, I do not know really
Cheers,
Tomasz
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13-08-2014, 05:09
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#228
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky
I was tought (and in old days the schooling and training for sailing was extremely serious in Poland) that the courtesy flag should be always a natonal flag of the visited country, not the merchant or other ensign.
The rationale behind this was: the ensign is to show the nationality of the ship bearing it, the courtesy flag is to the honour of visited country.
The exception was possible for warships, paying official visits, to hoist the naval ensign of visited fleet to her honour, by permission granted by proper flag officer of visited fleet.
By the way, I use national flags for crew nationalities for the same reason - the are flags to give a honour to the nationality of somebody on board, not to show the nationality of ship.
Cheers,
Tomasz
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Makes sense to me, but isn't it strange that this seemingly simple question of what flag to fly as a courtesy flag is producing such conflicting results. Particularly as some countries kick up such a fuss about it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb
Sailing into Gilbralter a couple of yeras ago, the marina hand who pointed out our slip and helped with the lines, told us ni no uncerntain terms that the very first thing we had to do was hoist our british courtesy flag ("and I mean before you do anything else!")
Later that day I saw a notice from the Port Captain on the board by the harbour office.
"Any boat not flying the correct courtesy flag is to be denied docking and told to leave the port and not return until they have learned to show the proper respect"
So some do take this very seriously.
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Carsten, I am now curious. What courtesy flag did you fly in this instance! The Union Flag or the Red Duster?
__________________
SWL (enthusiastic amateur)
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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13-08-2014, 05:16
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#229
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,537
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM
See Post #193 which gives the official stance according to the "Awards & Culture Branch, Dept of Prime Minister & Cabinet" which I would suggest trumps your reference
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Really
A brochure from the Prime Minister (or at least his department) compared to "Yachting Flag Lore" written by a Lt Col. with assistance from a Col. plus an expert vexillologist and vexillographer. All for a RAN Sailing Association. My money won't be on the PM's department but I accept you might have a higher opinion of pollies than I!
But I digress, this is really the Lassie's reference and I would normally let her defend it however her knuckles are somewhat bruised already, so I step in...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass
........
In the light of the comments about using the National Ensign as the correct courtesy flag when visiting a foreign country, I am fast losing respect for this document. It is only the fact that it includes the Gin Pennant that redeems it .
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We are all in agreement with the GP I believe
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13-08-2014, 05:25
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#230
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Note to Fuzzy wuzzies: The Union flag is not a Sea Flag, it is a land flag, hence it has no place aboard any yacht. The courtesy flag of a nation is its maritime ensign, NOT its national flag ( listen up those entering italian waters !!)
As to flying the Union flag aboard foreign yachts, my position stands that the Pilot Jack has become the de-facto flag if one wishes to "fly the flag"
Dave - thinking about flying the gin pennant, instead I welded to a computer
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13-08-2014, 05:41
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#231
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
We are all in agreement with the GP I believe
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Wottie, one thing yet another thing that is puzzling me is why LtCol Starrett kept referring to it as a pendant, not a pennant. Have you heard this term before in relation to bunting? I'm a bit slow getting the hang of all the correct terminology and I don't want my knuckles to be rapped yet again .
Is pendant another word for pennant?
__________________
SWL (enthusiastic amateur)
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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13-08-2014, 05:44
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#232
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
Note to Fuzzy wuzzies: The Union flag is not a Sea Flag, it is a land flag, hence it has no place aboard any yacht. The courtesy flag of a nation is its maritime ensign, NOT its national flag ( listen up those entering italian waters !!)
As to flying the Union flag aboard foreign yachts, my position stands that the Pilot Jack has become the de-facto flag if one wishes to "fly the flag"
Dave - thinking about flying the gin pennant, instead I welded to a computer
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Oi! Who are you calling a fuzzy wuzzy?
Gin flag will be raised here in another hour and six minutes, so you have missed tonight's session. A warm welcome would be extended any other time you could make it though .
__________________
SWL (enthusiastic amateur)
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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13-08-2014, 05:52
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#233
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass
Oi! Who are you calling a fuzzy wuzzy?
Gin flag won't be raised here for another hour and six minutes, so you have missed tonight's session. A warm welcome would be extended any other time you could make it though .
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A royal proclamation to except certain esteemed Cf members from Fuzzy Wuzzy status is in preparation, standby.
Since the sun is well over the yard-arm, its Gin time
I have recently been converted to the charms of Henderson Gin and Cucumber - absolutely fab. For historical reasons I support the quaint notion that Irish whiskey is best, but by God ,the Scots make a fine Gin.!!!!
dave
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13-08-2014, 05:58
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#234
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
The Union flag is not a Sea Flag, it is a land flag, hence it has no place aboard any yacht. The courtesy flag of a nation is its maritime ensign, NOT its national flag ( listen up those entering italian waters !!)
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Funnily enough I just checked some five random web pages of UK based chandleries.
All offer national flags as courtesy flags (Italy included)
Probably the best advice is to check for local practices as thoroughly as possible in advance
The thing is customary, not statutory in most of countries and we have a saying here: Another country, another custom
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13-08-2014, 06:09
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#235
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky
Funnily enough I just checked some five random web pages of UK based chandleries.
All offer national flags as courtesy flags (Italy included)
Probably the best advice is to check for local practices as thoroughly as possible in advance
The thing is customary, not statutory in most of countries and we have a saying here: Another country, another custom
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I don't think id take chandleries as a good guide for anything
from the Yately Sailing club site
"
Courtesy flags are normally the maritime flag of the country which in most cases will be that same as the National Flag (e.g. France, USA, Netherlands) others may be the National Flag defaced with a device (e.g. Italy, Finland, Morocco) and others may be a totally different flag (e.g. UK, Australia, New Zealand). If you are planning to visit a foreign country, find out the correct maritime flag from some of the sources shown at the end of this article. "
Malta is one of the exceptions , where the national rather then maritime ensign should be flown as a courtesy flag.
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13-08-2014, 06:12
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#236
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2012
Location: At sea somewhere in the Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 6,393
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
SWL- Here is the link to the Weilbach courtesy flag page. The word Gæsteflag means courtesy flag in Danish
Køb alle europæiske flag online hos Weilbach A/S
Entering Gilbraltar, we flew the Jack (see link above). However, I suppose were we to have been completely correct, we should have flown the flag of Gilbralter as shown below:
By the way Double Whiskey - thank you for the support - I was beginning to feel a little lonely. I can see a boat on the other side of the harbour and the sun is above its yardarm - so it is time for a gin
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Our books have gotten 5 star reviews on Amazon. Several readers have written "I never thought I would go on a circumnavigation, but when I read these books, I was right there in the cockpit with Vinni and Carsten"
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13-08-2014, 06:17
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#237
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: cornwall uk
Posts: 574
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
SWL .... You are ..... as ever totally correct, but I was suggesting some confusion and possibly it's source.
I personally wouldn't fly anything for someone on board unless they were someone of titled importance, that is to say, they had a flag that represented them, such as royalty or a high ranking naval person or a commodore of a visiting yc.
The charter world does seem to have turned this into some sort of " if I suck up to them enough I might get a bigger tip"
But i am from the " less is more " culture and flag waving on my crafts were limited
Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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13-08-2014, 06:19
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#238
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
A royal proclamation to except certain esteemed Cf members from Fuzzy Wuzzy status is in preparation, standby.
Since the sun is well over the yard-arm, its Gin time
I have recently been converted to the charms of Henderson Gin and Cucumber - absolutely fab. For historical reasons I support the quaint notion that Irish whiskey is best, but by God ,the Scots make a fine Gin.!!!!
dave
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That's a new one to me.
We have Tanqueray and Bombay Saphhire on offer. G&T preparation is a fine art on board left to my admiral. He freezes the tonic just enough to get it slightly thick, but not too much or tiny shards of ice form. No ice cubes are needed then to dilute it .
You haven't manage to completely distract me though. Why do you think the Pilot/Civil Jack is the right one for foreign ships to fly on their port halyard when they have a UK guest on board? To start with, isn't a jack only flown from the jackstaff? You have me totally befuddled with the terminology now. Hard enough sorting out pennants from pendants, let alone jacks that aren't really jacks .
__________________
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"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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13-08-2014, 06:23
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#239
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2012
Location: At sea somewhere in the Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 6,393
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass
To start with, isn't a jack only flown from the jackstaff? You have me totally befuddled with the terminology now. Hard enough sorting out pennants from pendants, let alone jacks that aren't really jacks .
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This is how the brits won the Nepoleanatic wars. They couldn't baffle them with their brilliance - so they befuddled them with their ********
If it is any consolation - I'm confused also-about which british flag to fly
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Our books have gotten 5 star reviews on Amazon. Several readers have written "I never thought I would go on a circumnavigation, but when I read these books, I was right there in the cockpit with Vinni and Carsten"
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13-08-2014, 06:36
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#240
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
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Re: Flag Etiquette Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb
This is how the brits won the Nepoleanatic wars. They couldn't baffle them with their brilliance - so they befuddled them with their ********
If it is any consolation - I'm confused also-about which british flag to fly
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Carsten, don't feel badly, Weilbach are also terribly confused.
In their blurb about courtesy flags on the English version of their website, they say to use the national maritime flag of the host country as a courtesy flag.
http://www.weilbach.com/products/fla...national-flags
Click on the little triangle next to 'Open' under the map and this is what you find:
__________________
SWL (enthusiastic amateur)
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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