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Old 08-10-2013, 14:53   #166
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That's good stuff Dockhead!
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Old 08-10-2013, 16:38   #167
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Exactly what I have. The 270 Newton inflatables are not all that common; 165 is the norm (I believe). But 165 is probably not enough if you are in cold water and lose the ability to swim (which you will after maybe 10 minutes).

This is a totally superior solution, IMHO. A non-inflatable lifejacket is a passive measure intended to help you in case your boat is already sinking and you have time to roust it out and put it on -- a la Titanic. It's not effective in the situations where we actually need them on a yacht -- in rough weather, say, when there's a risk of going overboard, but you need to be able to function and move about on deck.

They are not inferior to non-inflatable jackets in terms of pulling over your head if they have proper crotch straps -- and I wish they would ban the sale of any jackets without these.
hey so we got you thinking like a Brit over there eventually, didn't we!
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Old 08-10-2013, 16:40   #168
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

"They are not inferior to non-inflatable jackets in terms of pulling over your head if they have proper crotch straps -- and I wish they would ban the sale of any jackets without these."

BRAVO!!!
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Old 08-10-2013, 17:44   #169
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

This is a bit obscure but....UL tests fire extinguishers to meet the following standards: ANSI/UL 711 and ANSI/UL 299. USCG aproves the above under USCG standard 162.028/Ex1793. You may have bought a Kidde dry chemical ABC fire extinguisher at Home Depot (or something) and that fire extinguisher WAS built to UL standards but DID NOT show the USCG verbage. Also, for the fire extinguisher to meet USCG standards it has to be mounted in USCG approved bracket.
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Old 08-10-2013, 17:48   #170
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

Stop saying I'm wrong PROVE IT

Dave
Read the 1982 Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), Articles 94 and 217. As I previously said, if you really want to understand this you should get a copy of the NZ & Chile court decisions. A serious attempt was made in both countries to enforce national safety regulations on Foreign vessels and both were taken to the highest available courts, and both law were overturned because they contravened international treaty obligations. I was in both countries and involved, when each was issued. They were unfortunately issued back in the paper days so I don't have electronic copies, but I suspect they exist somewhere. But unlike "impeded" this issue has been comprehensively ruled.

France does NOT enforce it's flag state safety equipment regulations on Fireign vessels. Just for example, US vessels will not have CE markings, and France do not and cannot insist on it. It has the power to fine a UK boat for out of date flares because the UK's own requirements include in date flares.

AR15s and competency laws and all the other examples you quote are not considered safety equipment issues.
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Old 08-10-2013, 18:30   #171
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Robin-
Even the older smaller Crewfits would roll a person face-up face-out of the water, if properly adjusted. And they used to make a point of telling buyers to get in the water and adjust it, to ensure that happened.

But I suspect the buyers of most inflatables only consider the case that it is designed to keep them afloat. In my case, I had no problem trusting the new thing for two reasons: I was already familiar with scuba bc's, which are essentially the same device, and I knew that they were standard issue on Marine One even when the President was on board. And thanks to a scuba incident, I knew that having enough buoyancy to get one person well above the water (whatever part of the vest is above the water provides no lift at all) also means you've got enough to keep two people afloat with one vest. Which can be very handy when you're in the water with a friend who is sinking.

So, just in passing...there's no such thing as too much lift in a PFD!
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Old 08-10-2013, 21:05   #172
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Re: estarzinger

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Read the 1982 Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), Articles 94 and 217. As I previously said, if you really want to understand this you should get a copy of the NZ & Chile court decisions. A serious attempt was made in both countries to enforce national safety regulations on Foreign vessels and both were taken to the highest available courts, and both law were overturned because they contravened international treaty obligations. I was in both countries and involved, when each was issued. They were unfortunately issued back in the paper days so I don't have electronic copies, but I suspect they exist somewhere. But unlike "impeded" this issue has been comprehensively ruled.

France does NOT enforce it's flag state safety equipment regulations on Fireign vessels. Just for example, US vessels will not have CE markings, and France do not and cannot insist on it. It has the power to fine a UK boat for out of date flares because the UK's own requirements include in date flares.

AR15s and competency laws and all the other examples you quote are not considered safety equipment issues.
One small disagreement, the UK has no law thart requires UK boats to even have flares let alone any need for them to be in date. THE UK relies on people to use their own commonsense and to have such things and other safety kit but it does not insist on it There is encouragement to learn and take classes like those run by the RYA but there are no compulsory courses nor licencing for privately owned recreational vessels other than those used for commercial operations. Coding of vessels used for charter or sailing schools is different and the rules for those are quite strict. NAnny state tactics do not make things safer.

When the French on rare occasions have 'fined someone for out of date flares or similar, it has usually involved an ill_-Informed official , local policeman, for example, being what we call 'bloody minded' and usually there are other factors at play too like perhaps the bad attitude of the supposed 'victim'. Under these circumstances it pays to be polite and say yes sir no sir at the appropriate times, pay the fine if need be and geta lawyer to take it up in court later if time and funds allow or better still put it down to experience and pour another beer.

We sailed very extensively in French waters over many years and were boarded many many times either in harbours or at anchor, even at sea within French territorial waters. AT no time were we ever asked for anything other than ships papers and crew passports followed by general polite questions about where we had come from and where we were headed next WE commonly requested 'une fiche' a receipt to confirm we had been boarded , when and by whom. This fiche would normally mean another boarding request soon after woul be dropped.

The mention elsewhere of foreign boats needing to meet EU requirements ( the Recreational Craft Directive) is a different thing altogether and is a standard of build requirement certificate to prove suitability for purpose for any boat to be imported or sold into the EU. IT does make it complicated and of course costly to bring in a used vessel from outside of the EU, say from the USA, which would then have to obtain a certificate showing compliance with the RCD, all about build and design requirements though and nothing to do with equipment such as flares or lifejackets carried.

I suspect most people by now will have fallen fast asleep but hopefully some may just understand a little better what happens on t'other side of the pond.
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Old 08-10-2013, 21:22   #173
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

I only have one question. Can I rent a Ducatti in Italy?
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Old 09-10-2013, 04:57   #174
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One small disagreement, the UK has no law thart requires UK (pleasure) boats to even have flares let alone any need for them to be in date.
I stand corrected (with the one bold edit I added), you are completely correct with regard to pleasure vessels.. My experience with UK flag has all been on commercial classed boats, which are required to have flares.

For Dave, the following from the little ship club is directly on point. See the first paragraph "if you are on innocent passage, then the flag state requirements rule".
http://littleshipclub.co.uk/files/im...20part%202.pdf
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Old 09-10-2013, 06:41   #175
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Re: estarzinger

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
I stand corrected (with the one bold edit I added), you are completely correct with regard to pleasure vessels.. My experience with UK flag has all been on commercial classed boats, which are required to have flares.

For Dave, the following from the little ship club is directly on point. See the first paragraph "if you are on innocent passage, then the flag state requirements rule".
http://littleshipclub.co.uk/files/im...20part%202.pdf
This isn't quite correct.

Only pleasure craft boats under 13.7m can enjoy a near absence of regulation. Anything over has increasing requirements and needs flares , lifejackets and liferafts etc with the requirements going up according to how far off shore you go and then further if on charter and if over 20 and 24m and so on.

See:
MCA - Homepleasure_craft_information_packdec07-2.pdf‎

Extract:
Pleasure craft of less than 13.7 metres in length are not covered by any statutory requirements
as far as life saving or fire fighting equipment is concerned.
At 13.7 metres in length and over they are, however, obliged to comply with the Merchant
Shipping (Life-Saving Appliances for ships other than ships of Classes III to VI (A)) Regulations
1999 and the Merchant Shipping (Fire Protection: Small Ships) Regulations 1998 respectively.
These vessels are classified as being Class XII in these Regulations.
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Old 09-10-2013, 06:42   #176
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

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Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper View Post
I only have one question. Can I rent a Ducatti in Italy?
probably, like if you have enough money someone somewhere will provide.

What you will definitely find is the genuine Italian food that you definitely do not find in the USA!
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:57   #177
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Re: estarzinger

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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
This isn't quite correct.

Only pleasure craft boats under 13.7m can enjoy a near absence of regulation. Anything over has increasing requirements and needs flares , lifejackets and liferafts etc with the requirements going up according to how far off shore you go and then further if on charter and if over 20 and 24m and so on.

See:
MCA - Homepleasure_craft_information_packdec07-2.pdf‎

Extract:
Pleasure craft of less than 13.7 metres in length are not covered by any statutory requirements
as far as life saving or fire fighting equipment is concerned.
At 13.7 metres in length and over they are, however, obliged to comply with the Merchant
Shipping (Life-Saving Appliances for ships other than ships of Classes III to VI (A)) Regulations
1999 and the Merchant Shipping (Fire Protection: Small Ships) Regulations 1998 respectively.
These vessels are classified as being Class XII in these Regulations.
That is in a totally different wealth category for me, my biggest boat was 41ft in the UK and was for purely recreational use no charter or sailing school work. our boat now is a mere tiddler at 36ft, bought to fit our tiny budget and for skinny waters and low bridges, We are no threat to homeland Insecurity nor are we drug runners or boat bums, we just want to live peacefully cruising the ICW, preferably without attracting too much attention from the authorities, if they are still in operation after the current debacle is over
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Old 09-10-2013, 15:35   #178
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Re: Boarded by the Coast Guard..Terminated Voyage

Now we just need someone to say that if they had tried to board my boat, the guns would have come out.
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Old 09-10-2013, 22:01   #179
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So! Having read through all 18 pages of whatever the heck all this is, next time I see the Coastguard coming in my direction I'll run below, put every lifejacket I can find on, especially the inflatable ring ones with a sort of pressure valve for anti swimmers, hoist a British flag, and run back out waving some confusing assortment of maybe Coastguard approved extinguishers (but only based on weight ... or maybe type...though maybe itll be worse than weight ....but deffinetly approved....maybe), and answer everything in French while quoting international treaty... all while blowing my whistle... irregardless of Coastguard approval, cause my whistle doesn't need approval whether I blow it or not....

As always my fellow sailors, A veritable wealth of seafaring know how we can all understand and enjoy...
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:56   #180
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You forgot to ring the bell. One ticket for you.
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