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Old 04-12-2014, 20:20   #631
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Re: The Yard Guys

This short vid on s/v Dorade might interest some. Built in 1929 by Olin Stephens of Sparkman & Stephens fame. It was actually the one & only boat he ever owned. It won every ocean race it entered back in the day, and has now been restored and has been competing in many of those same races.

What's interesting is that it has not only been winning its class, but has apparently also been beating out contemporary designs (at least as far as I understand the rules). It's 52' LOA with only a 10' beam. Sort of the other end of the spectrum from beamy modern race boats. Lots of different ways to achieve performance through the water I guess.

955nm in 5 days with a recorded top speed of over 13 kts. Hmmmm . . . maybe I do need something a bit faster. Btw, anybody know the name of the sail that is flying in front of the mizzen?

Sorry about the link -- haven't figured out how to embed. Lots more vids & info available via Google. Enjoy.

Dorade Transpac Day 7 - YouTube
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Old 04-12-2014, 20:58   #632
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I think you are pointing to Cheeki Rafiki the first 40.7 , right?
Actually that's a great point. You may very well be right. I'll be interested to see if any further info comes out of that.
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Old 04-12-2014, 21:30   #633
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Re: The Yard Guys

Yeah, what a beautiful boat, i see the boat docked in a previous Antigua week, narrow , fine, sweet lines, lots of varnish he he,,,, a masterpiece...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=-SShmgbiG7w

Another old glory.. and Going fast!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=czQQ2dNVi7o
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Old 05-12-2014, 04:55   #634
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
-
The Philocat is typical of many of Erik Larounge designs(all pretty much look the same) more suited to european/med sailing rather than living and cruising than the real tropics.

The photos I showed of verticle windows in the Outremer and Machonnacy (a schonning design) is indicative of the trend by some of the top cat designers. M & M have also been tending to more verticle windows. What about the verticle windows/doors in all the foward cockpit designs including Gunboat.
Well, M&M can find that great but vertical windows and a door forward even if are very useful in what regards enjoying the forward part of the cat have obviously a lot of compromises regarding windage and even safety if we are not talking about a big cat.

Cats like all boats are compromises you can have them more or less sail efficient, more or less seaworthy (and in what regards both windage counts) more or less compromised in what regards living ability, where a box is the perfect space. Lagoons and other condo cats compromise more in what regards sail performance and offer for the size the best living accommodations, performance cats like the Philocat offer much better sail performance but more compromised living space. No miracles here.

Regarding the Philocat to be designed for the Med and not to the Caribbeam, the weather conditions are not that different. The med in the summer is quite hot.

Regarding compromises here one that I like in therms of design (even if I personally would prefer a more sportive boat), from VPLP, with inverted window panels and a relatively small surface regarding the total boat windage. it will allow more shade on the interior and great views without compromising too much.
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Old 05-12-2014, 05:11   #635
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
This short vid on s/v Dorade might interest some. Built in 1929 by Olin Stephens of Sparkman & Stephens fame. It was actually the one & only boat he ever owned. It won every ocean race it entered back in the day, and has now been restored and has been competing in many of those same races.

What's interesting is that it has not only been winning its class, but has apparently also been beating out contemporary designs (at least as far as I understand the rules). It's 52' LOA with only a 10' beam. Sort of the other end of the spectrum from beamy modern race boats. Lots of different ways to achieve performance through the water I guess.

955nm in 5 days with a recorded top speed of over 13 kts. Hmmmm . . . maybe I do need something a bit faster. Btw, anybody know the name of the sail that is flying in front of the mizzen?

Sorry about the link -- haven't figured out how to embed. Lots more vids & info available via Google. Enjoy.

Dorade Transpac Day 7 - YouTube


Hummm, great looking 52ft boat classic boat, a true beauty and an absolute winner when it was built. A great design from that era. Wonderfully raced by a huge racing crew, won the 2013 Transpac on compensated time but was beaten on real time by much smaller and much less expensive sailboats, not as well sailed, like a X41 and a First 40.
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Old 05-12-2014, 06:57   #636
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Hummm, great looking 52ft boat classic boat, a true beauty and an absolute winner when it was built. A great design from that era. Wonderfully raced by a huge racing crew, won the 2013 Transpac on compensated time but was beaten on real time by much smaller and much less expensive sailboats, not as well sailed, like a X41 and a First 40.
I was just waiting for you to bust me on that one! But Dorade looked sooooo much better going slower.
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Old 05-12-2014, 07:31   #637
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Who cares about picking a vessel because it can blow away another design. No doubt the Philocat priority is speed first. Perhaps there was a racing crew on the Philocat and a family on the Outremer. In its design for tropic living it is outdated.

No issues with the Lagoon compromises but many of the newer cat designs are tending to verticle windows. Factors such as hull/bow design, centralisation of weight bow height and mast position all have an impact on breaking waves impacting on the superstructure.

The designers have dealt with the issue of verticle windows with other aspects of their design.

The Philocat is typical of many of Erik Larounge designs(all pretty much look the same) more suited to european/med sailing rather than living and cruising than the real tropics.

The photos I showed of verticle windows in the Outremer and Machonnacy (a schonning design) is indicative of the trend by some of the top cat designers. M & M have also been tending to more verticle windows. What about the verticle windows/doors in all the foward cockpit designs including Gunboat.
You are probably right, the trend nowadays is towards maximizing living space and the vertical windows are part of that trend. In my opinion they don't ad to the sailing qualities or seaworthiness of a cat, probably the exact opposite. And yes, some people do care whether their multihull performs or not.
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Old 05-12-2014, 08:51   #638
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Re: The Yard Guys

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I was just waiting for you to bust me on that one! But Dorade looked sooooo much better going slower.
I agree, Dorade is just a wonderful boat and would made any owner proud even if it costs a fortune to maintain and has very little interior space. Strictly for very rich guys and I am very happy some have good taste and preserve boats like that one.

But if you like classic boats, like I do, have a look at the work of Dykstra. Sure the boats will cost a fortune too, but most are in aluminium and at least the price of maintenance will be a normal one for a boat of that size. They also have modern keels and rudders and that makes them faster boats. Namely some classic Bestevaer 50/60fteers like these ones:






But even so, strictly for Purists, since the interior space versus size of the boat is really minimal. For the ones that like that kind of old classic look the series based on traditional sailboats, for long range cruising makes much more sense since the bigger beamed hulls allows for a "decent" interior for the size. Faster too. I don't mind to have one of these






Dykstra Naval Architects
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:01   #639
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Re: The Yard Guys

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I agree, Dorade is just a wonderful boat and would made any owner proud even if it costs a fortune to maintain and has very little interior space. Strictly for very rich guys and I am very happy some have good taste and preserve boats like that one.

But if you like classic boats, like I do, have a look at the work of Dykstra. Sure the boats will cost a fortune too, but most are in aluminium and at least the price of maintenance will be a normal one for a boat of that size. They also have modern keels and rudders and that makes them faster boats. Namely some classic Bestevaer 50/60fteers like these ones:






But even so, strictly for Purists, since the interior space versus size of the boat is really minimal. For the ones that like that kind of old classic look the series based on traditional sailboats, for long range cruising makes much more sense since the bigger beamed hulls allows for a "decent" interior for the size. Faster too. I don't mind to have one of these






Dykstra Naval Architects

These look like beautiful designs that achieve a nice balance of old world aesthetics with thoroughly modern performance. Thanks.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:09   #640
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Re: The Yard Guys

The video features a boat called Hannah. A great boat, although personally I would forgo the traditional look and go for the more practical straight stem and stern designs like Dykstra's own boat Bestevaer II.

Hannah had some great practical features. The front "garage" area separated by a waterproof door and the gimballed work surface connected to the stove are just a couple of examples.

You can design the interior any way you like, but a slightly bigger boat with bare ends makes a lot of sense.



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Old 05-12-2014, 16:09   #641
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Well, M&M can find that great but vertical windows and a door forward even if are very useful in what regards enjoying the forward part of the cat have obviously a lot of compromises regarding windage and even safety if we are not talking about a big cat.

Cats like all boats are compromises you can have them more or less sail efficient, more or less seaworthy (and in what regards both windage counts) more or less compromised in what regards living ability, where a box is the perfect space. Lagoons and other condo cats compromise more in what regards sail performance and offer for the size the best living accommodations, performance cats like the Philocat offer much better sail performance but more compromised living space. No miracles here.

Regarding the Philocat to be designed for the Med and not to the Caribbeam, the weather conditions are not that different. The med in the summer is quite hot.

Regarding compromises here one that I like in therms of design (even if I personally would prefer a more sportive boat), from VPLP, with inverted window panels and a relatively small surface regarding the total boat windage. it will allow more shade on the interior and great views without compromising too much.
You are getting it now with the cat design trends.

More shade and airflow without compromising to much. As done by recent outremers, tony graingers and schonning designs. Seems the direction unlike the Philocat witch encourages light/read heat into the saloon without ventilation. The practical designes by many of the top designers thesedays are using overhangs and more verticle windows without compromising seaworthiness.

cheers

Some might see the Philocat as sexy and fast. I see it as a fast vessel with old looks and compronised for cruising/liveaboard by the saloon design.
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Old 05-12-2014, 16:58   #642
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Re: The Yard Guys

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You are getting it now with the cat design trends.



More shade and airflow without compromising to much. As done by recent outremers, tony graingers and schonning designs. Seems the direction unlike the Philocat witch encourages light/read heat into the saloon without ventilation. The practical designes by many of the top designers thesedays are using overhangs and more verticle windows without compromising seaworthiness.



cheers



Some might see the Philocat as sexy and fast. I see it as a fast vessel with old looks and compronised for cruising/liveaboard by the saloon design.

This is what I consider old looks and compromised.
Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1417823779.214703.jpg
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ID:	93023
Kind of like the new cat design trend yet the Catfisher was designed almost 40 years ago. I get the benefits of the design, but to call these designs as new cat trends and the Lerouge designs as dated is ridiculous.


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Old 05-12-2014, 17:11   #643
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Re: The Yard Guys

Here's a LeRouge catamaran.
Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1417824595.425106.jpg
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ID:	93024
And here's a Lagoon catamaran with the new modern looks.
Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1417824644.489168.jpg
Views:	63
Size:	255.5 KB
ID:	93025
So which one looks like a 1967 VW Bug and which one looks like a modern Ferrari? :-)


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Old 05-12-2014, 17:17   #644
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Re: The Yard Guys

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Here's a LeRouge catamaran.
Attachment 93024
And here's a Lagoon catamaran with the new modern looks.
Attachment 93025
So which one looks like a 1967 VW Bug and which one looks like a modern Ferrari? :-)


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Old 05-12-2014, 17:21   #645
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Re: The Yard Guys

Modern Lagoon
Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1417825094.826189.jpg
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Size:	260.8 KB
ID:	93028
And dated LeRouge
Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1417825147.879104.jpg
Views:	63
Size:	255.3 KB
ID:	93029
Ok I finished. Obviously I'm a fan of the Lerouge designs and consider the Lagoons as actually looking much more dated than they are. I will say that we are moored next to an older Lagoon 410 and it is a beautiful boat. They got the lines right on that one!


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