Internal Ballast - to melt or not to melt

[2big2small]

If you want an exact fit for the lead and assuming it is a nice and smooth and fully accessible hollow fiberglass keel then you can line the interior of the keel with plastic, foam it up, pull out the hardened foam, bury it in sand preferably or else just in the ground so that it sits level with the surface and then poor your molten lead slowly on top. The foam will evaporate and you’ll have a single lead cast that fits exactly in your fiberglass keel, (assuming this single piece would not be too heavy to manipulate—or you could cut up your foam in layers and have several lead casts).

I think I would stick with the small shot myself though. Seems pretty convenient for maintenance.

[a64pilot]

Whole lot of work, for a small gain in my opinion

[Cheechako]

Frankly I wouldnt worry about melting it. I dont see a reason it matters much. It's just another big job you dont need. Also, how will you get it back in the keel if it's one big heavy chunk?? This project has a deck already on the hull right? If you want it one solid chunk, flow casting resin in the keel with the lead bullets.

[CarinaPDX]

FWIW the Cape George cutters built by Cecil Lange had lead ingots laid in, a few layers at a time, with lead shot poured around them and the lot integrated with catalyzed resin. When finished, the top was heavily glassed over for support. It seems to be a good solution. Pouring your own plates would allow you to choose the shape, but alternating (up/down) ingots is very compact.

I agree that loose lead bullets are at risk of a puncture causing the loss of ballast. It may not be likely but it has happened before with steel punchings so I would avoid it.

Greg

[Deltasailor]

Originally Posted by Panope

I vote for re-melting.

I did same during last winter's refit using a simple wood fired set-up. I cast the lead into flat slabs that could be stacked like pancakes leaving very little airspace between.

Lead melting starts at the 3:50 mark of this video:

I agree with Panope. You can melt the lead down into small molds. and stack as low as possible in the keel cavity.In my case I mixed a slurry of small metal casting with resin to consolidate the ballast. I then laminated the whole with chop strand mat.

[DavidSaunders]

Thanks again to all who have responded. It is helpful to consider the opinions both ways.
Steve Bean, I think I will pursue your suggestion to see if it is worthwhile with respect to space gained, by melting a small can of the stuff. There looks to be a whole lot of waste material and air in there with the lead, so perhaps the space gain alone will make it worthwhile. The stiffness in sailing may also be useful. I know she has a rig 4' taller than she is designed for, so maybe the extra weight a bit lower would help offset that....
I appreciate all of you taking the time to help.
This brings back memories of my grandfather melting lead on the kitchen stove for sinkers. I guess ignorance was bliss. Come to think of it...he did die young. Hmmmn.
DavidSaunders

[Panope]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Whole lot of work, for a small gain in my opinion

True enough.

That said, I rather enjoyed the process. It was a cold winter and the fire and ice was a nice combo.



It also drew out some interesting spectators:

[RaymondR]

Melt into moulds made from sections of angle iron, the length of which are the depth of the ballast required. The ends are made from flat bar welded onto the angle and are made long enough to make the angles stable.

The triangular sectioned billets resulting are stacked in the ballast space vertically and four of them nested together make a square column. Multiple square columns make up a rectangular column.

You pour dry sand into the irregular spaces between the sides of the resulting columns and the lead column and glass over the top to seal and retain the ballast.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Steve Bean

A suggestion to visualize the space-saving benefit of melting: dig out a couple of pounds of bullets and melt a measured amount, say a soup can packed full, and pour it into the can. Compare the space saving to the volume you may lose to spaces between ingots. My boat, a 32-foot ferrocement, is ballasted with boiler punchings mixed with shot blast, like iron BBs. It was the heaviest combination the builder could find, as lead was beyond his reach economically. She sails just fine. I could replace the iron with lead and gain bilge space and lower center of gravity, but I'm not planning to do it. Even better would be gold; it's about one and a half times as heavy as lead... I had a friend who had permission to salvage pistol bullets at a military range on weekends. He made a 3,000-pound keel in many pours, using an electric pottery kiln.

Even simpler, fill a 2 gal bucket with it and then fill with water from a 1 gal jug. The amount of water you lose from the jug is equal to the air space (ie; if there is a 1/4 gal left, you had 3/4 gal of airspace or 37.5% airspace)

[Bill O]

David,
In the 70's, many times cement was used to immobilize loose lead ballast in a keel, very similar to the current suggestions to add an epoxy resin. Besides the cost savings, it is very heavy and may help provide more ballast with your taller rig down low where it is best served. If you need more lead, you should be able to purchase it for $1/lb or so.

Just a thought.

Bill O.

[Bill O]

Before I get blasted for suggesting cement added to lead, let me be clear all the old problems with previous "cement ballast" in some of the old boats. Many of these were a combination of iron/cement and for many reasons is clearly is a bad combo.

Lead and cement don't react the same as iron and cement. Also cement has a higher density than resin and only need a little bit to immobilize the lead.

Cement weighs around 150 lbs. per cu. ft.
Cast iron weighs around 450 lbs. per cu. ft.
Lead weighs around 700 lbs. per cu. ft.

The obvious choice is to get more lead for the best ballast, but still wouldn't have any issue with immobilization of the lead w/cement if it were my boat.

[1000 islands]

I just caught this thread today and I am impressed with what I have seen. It's rewarding to see things done by a DIYer that looks like work from a professional, who does that type of thing on a daily basis, with a much bigger choice of tools to pick from.

Bill, it is looking great and all I can say ton you his; keep it going you're doing a fabulous job.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Before I get blasted for suggesting cement added to lead, let me be clear all the old problems with previous "cement ballast" in some of the old boats. Many of these were a combination of iron/cement and for many reasons is clearly is a bad combo.

Lead and cement don't react the same as iron and cement. Also cement has a higher density than resin and only need a little bit to immobilize the lead.

Cement weighs around 150 lbs. per cu. ft.
Cast iron weighs around 450 lbs. per cu. ft.
Lead weighs around 700 lbs. per cu. ft.

The obvious choice is to get more lead for the best ballast, but still wouldn't have any issue with immobilization of the lead w/cement if it were my boat.

All the older IP’s are cast iron and cement I believe, and I looked hard, and could not find even one example of a problem.
Obviously if salt water gets to it, it’s not going to be good.

[anacapaisland42]

For goodness sake don't melt it...you will end up with so much dross that is impossible to dispose of in an environmentally safe manner.
Leave it where it is and pour in epoxy/polyester resin/cement...whatever.
Bill

[DavidSaunders]

Thanks again to all for sharing your thoughts, insight, experience, wisdom and concerns.

I just did some "digging" and discovered a large chunk of what also appears to be lead (at least by flashlight)- it was soft and shiny inside when I poked at it with my pry bar. Maybe this is just fill around the main pieces.... More digging is obviously in order.

I took about 1500ml (I know, but that's what the measuring cup uses for units) of lead pieces out, and was able to use about 600ml of water to fairly cover the lead.
So if my math is correct it is a little over one third by volume of airspace right now. Is it right then, that I could reduce the size by about 1/3 if it were all melted? The draft on Theodora is about 5'8", so I'd guess the keel to be about three feet deep.

What I initially thought was some sort of string in the mix are in fact short pieces of metal, which may also be lead. More investigation all around, it seems. I just thought I'd give you an update.

I'll continue to keep you posted.
Thanks Again,
DavidSaunders