Gel coat cracking, hull oxidized question

[sailorboy1]

[QUOTE=photousa;1671608 The boat has been out of the water since 2002. The boat yard won't allow inspection prior to the sale without a broker present and a broker is not involved in the sale. [/QUOTE]

To me these are much more of a danger sign than some gel coat cracking and oxidation.

[Sun and Moon]

Originally Posted by photousa

... The yard where the boat is being stored on stands will not allow any inspections without a broker present. The seller is giving buyers 3 days after the sale to do their inspections, if the buyer is unhappy with something, the buyer is offering to terminate the sale and refund the deposit.

RUN RUN RUN and don't look back. This is a very fishy situation for a boat that likely has very little value. And it sounds like the boatyard is in cahoots with the owner to hide something.

Rebuilding a boat can be a fun project, teach valuable skills and leave you with a great boat that might be worth as much as you put into it, not counting labor. But pick your project very carefully or it will eat you alive. There are way more failed projects out there than successful ones.

[Jim Cate]

Photo, please listen to the folks here! This sounds like a very dubious arrangement.

1. I have never (repeat NEVER) heard of a stipulation like "can't inspect the boat without a broker present" being invoked. No one in their right mind (either buyer or seller) would agree to that. What benefit accrues to an honest sale situation from this restriction?

2. A boat that has languished ashore for twelve years will have many, many problems. Each problem will cost both time and money to address. Some of them will require the boat to be on the hard to correct, and that is expensive. Even if you do not put a value on your labour, the bits and pieces needed are expensive and sometimes difficult to source. Further, there may well be underlying issues that lead to the boat being on the hard in the first place, and such could add enormously to the cost of refit. Look for a thread here on CF entitled something like "I'm walking away from this boat". It chronicles just such a saga as you are considering.

3. In the event that you ignore our advice and continue with this purchase, be very sure that you have a WRITTEN contract that stipulates that you can walk away within three days of purchase, and that the money goes into an escrow account in the interim, not into the seller's account. And then be sure that you have a firm date with a very hard nosed surveyor on the first day of the three.

Really, Photo, there are thousands of boats for sale these days. Many of those are true bargains, and being offered without odd ball restrictions. It is easy to fall in love with the image of a boat, the image being that of one that has finished the refit and basks in its former glory. It is a long way from reality.

As one who grew up in Chicago, I fully understand the desire to relocate... I went to California to go to University and never went back. But, don't let the aspect of another winter freezing your ass off send you down the wrong escape route... it leads to dispair and disaster.

Cheers,

Jim

[ssanzone]

While i dont fully agree with the others regarding the term the boat being on the hard is biggest problem, I do think it results in many (different) questions / considerations.

1. has it been covered or is it full of 12 years of rain / melted snow
2. how much life will need to be breathed into the motor


regarding your original questions...

1. are the cracks in the gelcoat resulting in water wicking into the deck core and leaving a soft deck for you to recore
2. cracking is a result of flexing, boats on the hard dont move and, therefore, dont flex. if the cracking into 12+ years old, you have MAJOR problems. if the cracking is more than 12 years old, you may have major problems.

I do agree that there are a lot of boats on the market right now and there is likely a boat with a lot less risk available to you.

12 ears of neglect can surprise you with all kinds of things...

I once took on a project with a similar history. Months into the project, I accidentally discovered that a cockpit drain had 15 years of water running down a bulkhead and pooling between a motor mount and the bulkhead (both of which were beyond hope of salvaging). While I was relieved to have discovered before I splashed, I was not thrilled about having to pull the motor, rip out the bulkhead and part of the sole and spend another 2K I had not originally planned.

I have ignored advice to run, run or run and been happy I made my own decision and i have ignore advice to run and regretted it.

Best advice... go in with open eyes and, if you move forward, dont be surprised with what you find.

We'll be here discussing guns and anchors eager to be distracted by your refit questions.

gl.

-steve

[bsurvey]

there are gel coat cracks for various reasons. gel coat too thick. or stress cracking that may be an indication of actual FRP damage.

since they won't let you go through the boat, hire a certified surveyor. in lieu of a broker I am sure they will let him do the inspection as a disinterested 3rd party

[SVTatia]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

1. I have never (repeat NEVER) heard of a stipulation like "can't inspect the boat without a broker present" being invoked. No one in their right mind (either buyer or seller) would agree to that. What benefit accrues to an honest sale situation from this restriction? ...

++ 1

Any yard that has a boat standing for 12 years should promote the sale to any interested party. Trying to make it difficult to see the boat means that they are not being honest.
You can hire a surveyor or broker, but you'll be wasting a couple of hundred dollars as they will say what has been said in the above threads.

Usually it is better to inspect the boat yourself and only then bring-in the experts for a an in-depth opinion - not the other way around.

There are too many project boats on the east coast if this is your objective, go see the ones that show honesty and are willing to work with you on the sale.

[photousa]

Thank you one and all for your advice and wisdom. The boat is on the hard with the engine and generator already removed. The deal includes a new Yanmar 75 HP 4JH3-TBE KM4A 2.63-1, plus a new KOHLER generator model 5EOZ-S, both items have yet to be installed. Storage and boat back in the water has been paid thru June 2015. I agree that it sounds very odd that potential buyers are not allowed to look over the boat, the owner has stated that the yard will not allow, "visits" on boats without a broker present, and there is no broker involved in the sale. The owner has stated that the boat was last surveyed on August 30 2014 by a "professional surveyor", but did not offer to show the survey in the ad. I think the owner may have gotten in over his head with regards to the refit and just wants out. He's already stated that he's purchased another boat in Florida.

[meirriba]

If the boat has been surveyed recently - tell the seller that a copy of the survey is a basic condition for any interest from you.
Alternatively, if this report is unavailable, do not do anything without a proper survey made on your behalf.
If he truly wants to sell the boat he will arrange the survey with the yard.
As it is described - it seems a hoax and he would not allow you to find out whether it is one or not. The secrecy is suspicious.

I am a yacht surveyor myself and I would not touch a vessel that has not been in constant use. The list of surprises in a boat neglected for 12 years is endless.

[rockDAWG]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Honestly, I'd run like hell from this boat.
Ann

This is the best advice one can have.

Unless your objective is not sailing but like to fix thing with plenty of time and cash. Go buy a sailboat that has been actively used and in good shape. If you have time to walk around in the Chesapeake Bay boat yards, there are hundred of boats the someone wants to give away. Don't take it, it is a trap.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by meirriba

If the boat has been surveyed recently - tell the seller that a copy of the survey is a basic condition for any interest from you...

Sorry, but I would not rely on a seller-provided survey.

[mrlee]

Been there...done that...RUN!!! at least you'll still have the farm!!!

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

Sorry, but I would not rely on a seller-provided survey.

My assumption was that the survey, if indeed there was one, was made on behalf of a prospective buyer.
Anyway, the main idea of my comment was to avoid a vessel that cannot be surveyed properly before purchase. This is basic...

[RickDelaune]

Dear usaphoto, The advice you have been given is all well and good. I really have to agree with all they have said, BUT and that is a big but ???? You need someone who can talk about Fiberglass without actually seeing the things that are a concern. Find someone or call someone that can do all of this and tell you exactly what you have to watch out for. And buying a boat so far away makes no sense. If gel coat crazing and oxidation is a concern then you probably don't have money to have boat shipped back to Illinois with all of these problems. Be realistic, and ask yourself if the boat is all important or think about the money that you will spend to have a proper yacht, that you can make your own. Gelcoat crazing and oxidation are the least of your worries. I have an opinion, after 30 plus years in the fiberglass industry. And offer my help and advice for a phone call. 504-458-1013
Smooth Sailing, Capt. Rick Delaune

[GILow]

This one sounds scary to me. Too many potential issues including, I believe, a very real chance of hull distortion depending on how well the boat was supported during the 12 years. I've been watching a decent boat in a front garden nearby slowly warp over the last ten years. What was once possibly salvageable is now so much scrap fibreglass due to localised pressure points in the supporting scaffold.

Matt


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[George Da Porge]

Photousa, I'd seriously look for another boat. My wife and I bought a 1990 Catalina 30 last spring. In pretty good shape. I'm a DIY guy also. Sailed/motored for 4 days from Racine to GB (mostly motored as wind was either dead north or non-existent). Next day coming in from our first "home" sail, transmission took a shitter. $2k, had to pull engine (which is in good shape). Lost 5 weeks of sailing (bummer)! Anyway, the boat is still in pretty good shape but here is my to-do list (note: I do like things in very good order and operating condition, for ease of use and appearance):
1) replace 3 part traveler with 5 part, replace control lines. Add turning block and move cleats to aft edge of cabin top, so one doesn't have to reach through dodger to operate traveler.
2) replace all sheets and halyards, and other control lines
3) remove all stanchions and rebed/reseal. Also install backing plates.
4) go through and track all electrical wiring - not really anything wrong, but no wires are labeled. Likely need new 120V breakers, but need to find some that fit my panel. And BTW, one of the stanchions that really needs attention is behind electrical panel box. So I either need to find someone with at least 1 really skinny, flexible (more than just wrist and elbow joints) and strong arm; or I'm gonna have to pull electrical box to do the job correctly, so repair will last for years.
5) "deoxidize" gel coat and polish hull
6) replace rub rail insert, but check all rub rail screws or bolts for leakage/rebed as needed first
7) repair rudder (went aground just before tranny to the shitter and ground up the bottom of the rudder); there is also some delamination to repair (but why stop there - I'm thinking of reshaping the whole thing into a type 0012 airfoil shape too!)
8) Replace blower vent and air intake vent cowls (the existing are in bad shape). A seemingly easy and innocent job!
9) Replace all above waterline though hulls (the original fittings are pretty eaten up)
10) take apart 4 winches and relube (this is annual maintenance but I'm betting it's been years since it's been done
11) replace main halyard masthead block, as well as other halyard turning blocks. Any one wanna bet I can't change masthead block while hanging 50' in the air (from the jib halyard of course!)?
11) replace all the interior lights (the fluorescent tube lights are shot, the others - I figure change 'em while I'm at it
13) reinforce the fiberglass at the engine shut off cable, before I pull it right out someday (also - lube the cable!)
13) and the list goes on... The anal side of me wants all this done by May 15th. Gonna need to prioritize.

I've already done quite a few things. I guess my point is that even a boat in pretty good shape (and I believe that, not just being stubborn) has a lot to be done. I'm an engineer and consider myself a pretty good planner. This size boat is new to us and rarely has a job taken less than 1.5 times the time I estimated it would take.

Don't know what your budget is, but you ought to be able to find a better boat, especially one that is easier to inspect.

Best of luck to you!


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