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Old 15-12-2009, 19:31   #31
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Originally Posted by HobieFan View Post
Yep. It's dead. I had an experienced mechanic look at it and he looked at me and asked. "You have an outboard engine mount? You need one.". He says it most certainly threw a bearing.

Replacement cost including tearing out the galley and a bunk and half a bulkhead along with most of the electrical is looking to be almost the value of the boat. Know anyone who wants a Cal 34 with no engine? Cheap! Mount an outboard!
Sorry to hear that the engine replacement is so hard to do.

I couldn't believe that it would be that bad, so I had to find pics of a mark 3 to compare with the mark 1 I used to sail and help maintain. On the mark 1 you undo two catches and the steps lift out. 4 screws (which were never put in on the boat I sailed since the steps held the bulkhead in) and the bulkhead pulled out. Good access, disconnect engine and lift out with a halyard controlled horizontally by the boom. Of course it helped that it was an Atomic 4 gas engine so it was light.

You're very sure some of cabinetry around the engine isn't designed to be relatively easy to remove? From the pics of the mark 3 I saw it doesn't look as good as the mark 1, but it seems they should have still made some of those pieces removable.

John

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Old 15-12-2009, 19:36   #32
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As the engine did not get hot it is unlikely to have seized a piston. Most likely a big end or main bearing. The higher the rpm the more damage! If the engine is still seized when cold my suggestion is pull it out and do not waste any money trying to get it going.
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Old 15-12-2009, 19:36   #33
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Pulling the dipstick (if there is any oil at all left on it) draining the last residual oil from the pan, spinning off and looking at the filter or looking in the valve cover at the oil galleys may all reveal bronze metal. A real good indicator of a failed bearing. Chrome/silver color could indicate rings and cylinder walls.

Let's not shoot the messenger...

Although a failed rod bearing or main bearing usually gives up a sure signal before failure. Lot's and lot's of loud knocking from the bottom end although op may not have heard it.

Failed bearings don't usually result in seizure unless a rod bolt eventually fails (likely but very noisy). I suspect seizure is the rings and cylinder wall.
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Old 15-12-2009, 19:37   #34
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As the engine did not get hot it is unlikely to have seized a piston. Most likely a big end or main bearing. The higher the rpm the more damage! If the engine is still seized when cold my suggestion is pull it out and do not waste any money trying to get it going.
posted before reading page three
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Old 15-12-2009, 19:45   #35
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Pulling the dipstick (if there is any oil at all left on it) draining the last residual oil from the pan, spinning off and looking at the filter or looking in the valve cover at the oil galleys may all reveal bronze metal. A real good indicator of a failed bearing. Chrome/silver color could indicate rings and cylinder walls.

Let's not shoot the messenger...

Although a failed rod bearing or main bearing usually gives up a sure signal before failure. Lot's and lot's of loud knocking from the bottom end although op may not have heard it.

Failed bearings don't usually result in seizure unless a rod bolt eventually fails (likely but very noisy). I suspect seizure is the rings and cylinder wall.
Sorry but you are wrong 40years of automotive hands on and still at it. Yes there might have been a noise but diesels are noisy to start with so hearing the knock is not that simple. Bearings with no oil get hot very quickly, expand and grab the crank bringing the engine to a very quick stop. If this happens at high RPM the conrod will either bend or as happens a lot break away from the piston and punch a hole through the side of the block.
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Old 15-12-2009, 19:56   #36
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Mine knocked and carried on for HOURS before it locked up. We're talking about marine diesels, not auto diesels, a whole 'nother animal. Now if ya said ya had 40 years in the heavy truck industry, I might concede your point. Your explanation of bearing failure is to the point in most applications but not all.

Take a listen to this:



That's what a sick Perkins/Westerbeke sounds like before it gives up the ghost...
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Old 15-12-2009, 20:00   #37
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Sorry but you are wrong 40years of automotive hands on and still at it. Yes there might have been a noise but diesels are noisy to start with so hearing the knock is not that simple. Bearings with no oil get hot very quickly, expand and grab the crank bringing the engine to a very quick stop. If this happens at high RPM the conrod will either bend or as happens a lot break away from the piston and punch a hole through the side of the block.
"Sorry but you are wrong?" Such powerful words...

Credential comparing is so trite so I prefer not to.

I have experienced 3 rod failures. All accompanied by loud knocking prior to failure.

I agree that in a well insulated, below decks installation the knocking would be hard to hear over the normal "knocking" of a diesel.

The bearing can seize to the rod journal and can spin. This quickly wears out the bearing and increases the clearance. The rod then slaps and in extreme cases fails the rod cap bolt. The rod doesn't always have to "punch a hole" in the case. I've seeen the rod and cap separated and the rod end "smashed" but no hole in the case.

Once things let go it's a crap shoot in there.
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Old 15-12-2009, 20:20   #38
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Mine knocked and carried on for HOURS before it locked up. We're talking about marine diesels, not auto diesels, a whole 'nother animal. Now if ya said ya had 40 years in the heavy truck industry, I might concede your point. Your explanation of bearing failure is to the point in most applications but not all.
All internal combustion engines have pistons, most have slipper bearings, crank etc. I am intrigued to know what makes a marine diesel engine so different. As for the knocking for hours what was the cause of the failure? I did not say that every bearing failure resulted in the rod breaking etc. One thing I have learnt over those years is that every one knows better than the trained tradesman who has seen multiple failures with many causes over that period. It is like trying to tell other boaties that it is unwise to idle no load there motor for extended periods. They all no better and will try to blame the mechanic, oil, brand of engine when the problems start but never themselves for not listening to sound advice given in good spirit to hopefully save them $$$
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Old 15-12-2009, 20:42   #39
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It is like trying to tell other boaties that it is unwise to idle no load there motor for extended periods. They all no better and will try to blame the mechanic, oil, brand of engine when the problems start but never themselves for not listening to sound advice given in good spirit to hopefully save them $$$
So if someone doesn't idle under no load and has problems do they get to blame all those things.

I don't think anyone who does this thinks they know better then the mechanics that give us good advice. We are not doing it to tick you off or to just spend money unnecessarily. I think most of us just really need an engine for brief periods and need to use it at anchor to charge batteries and the current crop of diesel engines is all we have to choose from. We would love to have another alternative.

It is kind of like ignoring the doctors advice to live right, eat well and exercise. When we have problems we rarely blame ourselves for not doing those things, do we.

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Old 15-12-2009, 20:44   #40
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I did not say that every bearing failure resulted in the rod breaking etc. One thing I have learnt over those years is that every one knows better than the trained tradesman who has seen multiple failures with many causes over that period. It is like trying to tell other boaties that it is unwise to idle no load there motor for extended periods. They all no better and will try to blame the mechanic, oil, brand of engine when the problems start but never themselves for not listening to sound advice given in good spirit to hopefully save them $$$
I agree with you on this one.

However, practice and theory are strange bedfellows.

I routinely (at least once a month) idle my diesel for 30 minutes with no load. I also routinely drive it at WOT.

Some of the guys that do charters tie up at the dock and leave their engines idling for 30 minutes or more while loading. This ranges from a 38 foot ketch to a 90 foot trimaran.

I wouldn't panic about or blame idling as the cause for most engine problems.
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Old 15-12-2009, 22:18   #41
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I know it is very hot and humid in Sing but having reread my posts for some reason you seem to be misreading. I did not say that all problems eminate from idling, idling can I repeat can cause glazing and as a result hi oil consumption. In your case running the engine hard as well WOT will tend to negate the long idling but most would then chug around the bay at low RPM after idling. Operating conditions will also have a bearing on your having a glazing issue or not, just like checking the coolant and oil before running the engine would have probably saved the engine that this thread started from. I always get a laugh out of guys that do all the wrong things and because so far they have gotten away with it think they are clever. My bank account is a lot healthier thanks to there smugness.
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Old 15-12-2009, 23:10   #42
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That's what a sick Perkins/Westerbeke sounds like before it gives up the ghost...
Wow - poor sick motor. I like the idea of closing the companionway hatch in the hopes the knocking will go away -

Quote:
Originally Posted by meyermm View Post
It is like trying to tell other boaties that it is unwise to idle no load there motor for extended periods. They all no better and will try to blame the mechanic, oil, brand of engine when the problems start but never themselves for not listening to sound advice given in good spirit to hopefully save them $$$
Sorry if I misinterpreted this. Thought you were advising to not idle the engine for extended periods.

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Operating conditions will also have a bearing on your having a glazing issue or not

<snip>

just like checking the coolant and oil before running the engine would have probably saved the engine that this thread started from.

<snip>
Agree and agree but doesn't lower HobieFan's pain level any.

Sharing on a forum allows us all to learn. I am sure he's beating himself up enough. Doesn't need my help.

My 2 biggest fears are blowing the engine and losing the rig. Each replacement approaches the market value of my boat.
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Old 15-12-2009, 23:12   #43
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Jim...FWIW you made it look like the wrong poster made the statment in your post.



Gotta love those tough old Perkins..eh!


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Old 15-12-2009, 23:18   #44
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Jim...FWIW you made it look like the wrong poster made the statment in your post.
Thanks for pointing that out. I fixed it for him as his edit window probably has timed out.
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Old 16-12-2009, 04:51   #45
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what's with all the internal battles back and forth, is this becoming a group marriage?

For some more drift: why when people talk about engine replacement it becomes a tear the boat apart to get it in/out. Isn't it possible to do it in pieces? Now I've never done it it, but it seems that you take the head off and then be able to pull the rest etc ?
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