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Old 08-03-2016, 12:02   #1
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engine mount trouble

Hi CF, looooong time lurker, first time poster. I recently took the plunge an got myself a sailboat. I was cleaning up the engine (perkins 103-15) when I made a startling discovery. It appears the bolts connecting the rear 'engine mount brackets' (pieces between the engine and the mounts) are missing . That can't be good. I know at least one of the bolts was sheared off as the nice blue paint held the head of the bolt to the bracket. So, I have several questions
  1. What size/length/material bolt do I need to replace them? Can't seem to find a reference to it in the shop manuals I've found and my google-fu has failed me.
  2. Recommendations for getting the rest of the bolt/s out? It's probably wishful thinking but I hope the others are just missing:banged: Next time at the boat I'm going to remove the 'brackets' and take a look in the holes.
  3. Ideas for what caused the bolts to back out/shear off?
  4. References on re-aligning the engine and perhaps replacing the mounts too?

I've (hopefully) attached a pic of my missing bolts and a pic from the shop manual that has a very similar bracket for reference. Any and all advice on what to do is welcome.

Aaron
SV Whale, 34 Creekmore
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Old 08-03-2016, 13:19   #2
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Re: engine mount trouble

Can you probe the depth of
the holes with a paperclip?
It would be a bummer if
the bolts were broken off
short. Hope it's not too big
a problem.
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Old 08-03-2016, 13:26   #3
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Re: engine mount trouble

Been there. I use a guide the same size as the hole to center a pilot bit, then use an ease out to remove the broken bolt.

Left handed bits work real well as the bolt will often back out while drilling.
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Old 08-03-2016, 13:28   #4
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Re: engine mount trouble

Torque causes the shear. Possibly from shifting at too high rpm. The bolts could have been loose. Properly tightened, the engine mount takes the strain of engine movement. The bolts just hold the motor mount tight to the bell housing. Check all the other mounts and back out the bolts and check for wear and signs of being loose.
Standard bolts should be fine. Use lock washers, maybe Loctite the threads, but Loctite shouldn't be necessary. If the internal bell housing threads are damaged, most auto parts stores have products to insert new threads. Take a bolt with you.
To check alignment, loosen the transmission flange enough to insert feeler gauges into the gap. My oldtimer way is to measure top, bottom and sides and adjust engine position until flange gap is within .002". Rotate the shaft and double check. You'll get posts of other ways. Most don't seem to like my way. But, I've never had to replace a transmission or stern bearing because bad alignment in 60 years.
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Old 08-03-2016, 14:45   #5
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Re: engine mount trouble

You say you made this startling discovery AFTER you bought the boat. May I take the liberty of trying to see how this happened and where you are going with this? I do this to try and help you, so please bear with me as I may be off base or mistaken in some assumptions. If so, I apologize, but here goes. I will take a guess that either you hired an incompetent surveyor, or no surveyor at all and you certainly did not hire an engine surveyor--or else he too was incompetent to have examined motor mounts. Perhaps you did not hire any of these professionals because you thought they were--expensive perhaps? Or perhaps you were not financing or insuring the boat or you thought you could examine all the necessary items and find defects by yourself. How much did you pay for this boat? A Creekmore 34 can be pretty pricey. One online is asking 47k but we do not know what year or location or condition your boat is in--although if motor mounts are as bad as you say--one can only surmise that much of the rest of the boat was not well maintained. That is often the case. Based on the ease of finding such an obvious defect and one that is among the most common places things/items to ALWAYS check when buying or sailing a boat, I will take another guess that you bought this boat at "a fantastic price" and it was a "helluva deal." If you are mechanically inclined enough to try to make engine repairs and align the engine yourself, you probably would have looked for this and found it before buying the boat--yes? Am I waay off base or perhaps in the ballpark? If you are mechanically inclined enough to make repairs to your engine, including aligning it properly, then how could you have missed this? So, assuming that perhaps like me, you are not the most technically adept of boat owners, why are you still trying to do these repairs yourself--or relying on the advice of perfect strangers online to do a series of pretty important job that if done improperly can be very costly or worse...to repair? Assuming there is no manual on the boat (always a bad sign) or online for the engine (really? For a Perkins engine?) why not contact a qualified diesel mechanic? I think I know the answer to the last one. In any event, I hope it works out. Keep us posted. Thanks
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Old 08-03-2016, 15:11   #6
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Re: engine mount trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis View Post
You say you made this startling discovery AFTER you bought the boat. May I take the liberty of trying to see how this happened and where you are going with this? I do this to try and help you, so please bear with me as I may be off base or mistaken in some assumptions. If so, I apologize, but here goes. I will take a guess that either you hired an incompetent surveyor, or no surveyor at all and you certainly did not hire an engine surveyor--or else he too was incompetent to have examined motor mounts. Perhaps you did not hire any of these professionals because you thought they were--expensive perhaps? Or perhaps you were not financing or insuring the boat or you thought you could examine all the necessary items and find defects by yourself. How much did you pay for this boat? A Creekmore 34 can be pretty pricey. One online is asking 47k but we do not know what year or location or condition your boat is in--although if motor mounts are as bad as you say--one can only surmise that much of the rest of the boat was not well maintained. That is often the case. Based on the ease of finding such an obvious defect and one that is among the most common places things/items to ALWAYS check when buying or sailing a boat, I will take another guess that you bought this boat at "a fantastic price" and it was a "helluva deal." If you are mechanically inclined enough to try to make engine repairs and align the engine yourself, you probably would have looked for this and found it before buying the boat--yes? Am I waay off base or perhaps in the ballpark? If you are mechanically inclined enough to make repairs to your engine, including aligning it properly, then how could you have missed this? So, assuming that perhaps like me, you are not the most technically adept of boat owners, why are you still trying to do these repairs yourself--or relying on the advice of perfect strangers online to do a series of pretty important job that if done improperly can be very costly or worse...to repair? Assuming there is no manual on the boat (always a bad sign) or online for the engine (really? For a Perkins engine?) why not contact a qualified diesel mechanic? I think I know the answer to the last one. In any event, I hope it works out. Keep us posted. Thanks

I can see where your criticism should be a world of help and encouragement.
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Old 08-03-2016, 16:53   #7
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Re: engine mount trouble

That image looks very oily, resilient mounts don't like oil, they perish and collapse and cause the shafting to go into misalignment. Next thing to fail in my experience is the output coupling of the transmission as these are often soft Cast iron, (think the design intent is to make a weak link like a shear pin).
Anyway, assuming you can up your mechanical aptitude or get some help suggest the following:
Assuming its the aft mount that is damaged.
1 Don't use the vessel again till this is solved.
2 Don't touch the fwd mounts at all at this time.
3 Sling the motor or use pinch bars so that only aft end is lifted. (Lift is small so do not need to let go coupling.
3 Remove the damaged aft mount, identify it, support engine with temp blocks, order 2 replacements.
4 Determine that height of mounts is same as original, check for shims that may have been used.
5 Prevent further oil leak over mounts, could even use a protective cover made of sheet gal steel, reverse cup shape.
4 Once happy the principle is to lift the aft end pivoting on the fwd mounts in away that would also prevent side ways movement, in this way alignment should be pretty close to original.
5. After aft end is installed & tightened down at same original height. If you think they need it consider replacement of fwd mounts, CI coupling and check the alignment.

And tell us how it went.
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Old 08-03-2016, 17:15   #8
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Re: engine mount trouble

You should be able to remove the whole mount assembly to work on it/get the bolt remnant out. Just get all disconnected, pry the engine up with a 2 x 4 or something and put wood etc under the mount bracket to hold it until you have the assembly ready.
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Old 08-03-2016, 21:24   #9
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engine mount trouble

Thanks all and oceanride007's plan was about what I was thinking. I should have kept my post a narrower as I was mostly hoping to find the size/length of bolt I needed and secondly some recommendations on removing the sheared bolt, especially in confined space, so I could get what I needed before my next trip to the boat.

On that note I was able to slip away and put in a little boat time tonight. I took some random bolts I had at home that looked about right with me. I was able to remove the bracket from the mount to get a better look at the housing and indeed found one sheared off and one missing. Fortunately one of my bolts fit, but was too long (3/4 by 1") so I know what I need. All new mounts are added to the list.

And to Paul, like I said, I've been lurking here for some time so I knew that was coming, not that you're wrong. I will say that I have had the boat a few months and it's possible this occurred on my watch and the head of the bolt was still there so it wasn't quite so obvious. I knew the boat before I bought her, she was a good deal, she's in (otherwise) good shape, and I am a handy, do it myself, sailor on a budget and so on.

Anyway, I look forward to any more advice, now and certainly in the future and will post an update when I can.


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Old 08-03-2016, 22:39   #10
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Re: engine mount trouble

There are a few ways to remove sheared bolts, easy-outs & left hand drills are good advice.

If there's part of the bolt sticking proud of the threaded hole (bracket removed) mole grips clamped as hard as you can squeeze them often work. Filing or grinding flats on the threads and visegrip jaws can help if it doesn't work first time or if there's only a tiny amount of bolt sticking out proud.

If the thread is sheared maybe 1/8" deep in the hole - as usual - and you have enough room - a hammer and sharp centre punch can work if the broken stub isn't bottomed out hard in the threaded hole, or rusted, or "threadlocked" tight. You'll often find it unscrews so easily you could push it round with a small screwdriver.

Obviously drive the punch off centre and anticlockwise. No big licks, just tapping. Aim at a hollow in the broken-off face to give better purchase and avoid it skidding and damaging the threaded hole.

Occasionally, depending on access, I've used a burr on a Dremel to cut a slot for a flat screwdriver.

If you have to drill & easy-out don't forget to centre-pop first to avoid the bit skipping and damaging the thread.

All meant for the few who don't already know these tricks, most here will.
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Old 09-03-2016, 04:24   #11
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Re: engine mount trouble

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Aaron.
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Old 09-03-2016, 05:05   #12
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Re: engine mount trouble

When you go to replace the bolts, I'd make sure I had at least grade 5 bolts, do NOT use hardware store crap bolts, go to a fastener store and get real grade 5 or maybe grade 8 bolts.
On second thought I'd consider studs as it seems you can always get a nut off, but sometimes not bolts.
I'd also use plenty of anti-seize on the bolts as one day you may want to remove them.
Be real careful with easy outs, I've busted them off before, and your sort of screwed then, cause nothing I have found will drill out an easy out.
Using a pilot to keep the bit centered and drilling all the way through a bolt will sometimes make it easier to get out. get a few new good drill bits and replace when one gets dull, oil the hole being drilled of course with cutting oil
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Old 12-08-2016, 23:20   #13
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Re: engine mount trouble

I am in need of my engine mounts being replaced. Thankfully, nothing is sheared off. I got a quote for $980, parts and labor to include realigning the shaft. Does this seem fair? Way too high? A great deal?


$290 for parts
$75/hr for labor * 8 hours
Tax and Shipping


Thanks in advance
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Old 13-08-2016, 08:34   #14
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Re: engine mount trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by molo0928 View Post
I am in need of my engine mounts being replaced. Thankfully, nothing is sheared off. I got a quote for $980, parts and labor to include realigning the shaft. Does this seem fair? Way too high? A great deal?


$290 for parts
$75/hr for labor * 8 hours
Tax and Shipping


Thanks in advance
It could take that long. Hard to say without knowing the boat etc. Easy engine access? Does that include engine /shaft alignment? (measured at the coupling properly)
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Old 13-08-2016, 08:53   #15
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Re: engine mount trouble

The 107-8 have the same looking bell housing. I think those are supposed to be 9/16 cap screws. You will notice the starter drive is right behind so the length is important. Also the bell housing is aluminum and it's makes the task even more tricky to not damage the threads.
Worst case is you pull the starter and put a bolt in the hole.
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