Why so many unnecessary cabins and heads?

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

Sincerely, Sandy "Profundus Maximus" Daugherty

Profundud Maximus

I like your posts, Sandy, and appreciate your informed sense of humor. I think it's amusing, though, that the CF software has shortened the "Profundus Maximus" link to Profundud Maximus. Even the server here has a sense of humor.

TaoJones

[Madwand]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Let me state for the record there is nothing wrong with wanting a boat laid out the way you want it. As to why the manufacturers don't make it the way you want, well, that's already flogged to death.

Well, that was my main question, perhaps I was misguided in the research I have done on the only two boats I know of that are electric. Apparantly they are huge. I have no idea what a "normal" cat is like now. Maybe they have 4 cabins, maybe 1, I have no idea since the 2 I researched are laid out in the manner I described. My goal is to be as independant as possible and all electric is the only way I see that happening. I do not want to motor any more than possibly to dock. If I am stuck in the doldrums for 6 weeks with no wind, that is fine, I am prepared for that. I also do not plan to dock or moor or live off either as some have surmised. I plan on moving frequently. And I am not a mechanic so no clue how to work on my gas guzzling deisels. Maybe I should have made those things clear from the start.

The specific question above didn't get asnwered properly. I have three toolboxes on board. These go under the port bunk along with spares that includes, engine filters, impellers, pulley belt, wire, fuel hose, a bag of shackles and pulleys etc. etc. We do a lot of repairs sitting in the cockpit. It is possible to be over-tooled and tools are very heavy.[/

That helps in my understanding of how things get done on a boat. But are you land-based, or can you survive indefinitely with those items? I realize parts must be procured, but beyond that, can you get your parts and then move on, or must you rely on being tied to something to get it done? I never said that I planned on loading the boat down with tools, rather I said I wanted workspace. I understand the importance of waterlines.

This is another advantage of the starter boat - learning what works, what doesn't, what to bring what to dump.

That's what I'm trying to find out. But I may only have one chance at one boat. I can't forsee buying several boats and moving up each time. I need to determine what I can live on and sail on and go with that. I'll be 55 when this happens. I will also not be rich and able to buy a custom boat. I should have $200,000 in the bank and about $40,000 a year income. So, yes, I am looking at a used boat. I was trying to gain insight as to whether people buy and keep 4 cabin boats, or whether they, like me, might convert 2-3 cabins to something more useful than sleeping for people who are rarely or never there. I'm guessing unused berths are just as heavy as more essential items that could be stored in the same space.

Assuming these boats others are sailing have 3 or 4 cabins, I didn't see an answer as to whether those people are actually using all the cabins in their boats. There was one message stating that some people buy based on the assumption that children and grandchildren will sail, but I didn't hear from anyone who actually uses the 3 or 4 cabins for that purpose.

Or am I wrong in asuming that these are actually cabins on boats other than I have named? Are they really just berths? Do you just step down into a hull and crawl down to a berth as I do in my V-berth on my 19 footer? I have never been on a cat so I do not know. Or do you walk upright? Or are there even any berths in the hulls? Is it just a narrow point where you can stuff some sails? My apolgies if my Lagoon- and African Cat-limited views of cats have led me to believe thay are all more spacious than they are. I have no idea any more.

[Talbot]

Originally Posted by Madwand

I need to determine what I can live on and sail on and go with that. I'll be 55 when this happens. I will also not be rich and able to buy a custom boat. I should have $200,000 in the bank and about $40,000 a year income. So, yes, I am looking at a used boat. I was trying to gain insight as to whether people buy and keep 4 cabin boats, or whether they, like me, might convert 2-3 cabins to something more useful than sleeping for people who are rarely or never there. I'm guessing unused berths are just as heavy as more essential items that could be stored in the same space.

am I wrong in asuming that these are actually cabins on boats other than I have named? Are they really just berths? Do you just step down into a hull and crawl down to a berth as I do in my V-berth on my 19 footer? I have never been on a cat so I do not know.

There is no "one size fits all" answer. Most modern cats are in the 40ft or larger size. However with your money you are very unlikely to get an all electric boat as they are much more money. Personally I am more interested in having a proven technology system, plus sufficient solar and wind power that I do not need to run the diesel for charging.

I am considering a 3-4 cabin vessel, not so that I will use all the cabins, although I hope there will be occassions when I will achieve this, but so that I can use at least 2 cabins for people, plus one for stores, workshop bicycles etc etc. The cabins in a 40ft cat are a bit bigger than those on a 19ft boat and have full standing room, double beds, wardrobes, chests of drawers and some even have en-suite facilities. This will give you a brief view of the inside.
Panoramic Tour Privilege 395 Catamaran "Starlight Express" - AOL Video

[TaoJones]

Welcome (back) to the forum, Madwand. Glad you're here.

The arrangement of space in catamarans is different depending on a lot of variables, not the least of which is its size. Obviously, the bigger the cat, the more commodious, but with the additional space comes two very important issues: 1) Can a person safely handle a large cat singlehanded. When you're trying to safely tie up to a dock, or even picking your way through an anchorage, you'll feel like you're commanding the USS Enterprise. Even just one other pair of experienced hands will make a huge difference. And 2) Can a person resist the all-too-human urge to fill that space with "stuff." This is a major problem with most cruising cats.

A "small" cat, like a MaineCat 30, will have "breechloader-style" berths, where you crawl in as you do the berth in your present vessel. the older you get, the less fun this is. Larger cats offer the possibility of walk-around berths, but handling such a vessel by yourself will quickly lose its charm.

Based on my understanding of your needs/desires, I suggest you consider a trimaran. You will still have the appealing stability of a cat, a good turn of speed if you can keep her lightly-loaded, a single system of propulsion to maintain (a huge cost savings, right there), and, if you had a tri with the ability to retract the amas, maneuvering in tight quarters is much like a comparably-sized monohull.

If you continue your research, and get on as many different vessels as you can, you will begin to realize what works best for you. Good luck!

TaoJones

[Southern Star]

Wow, seems like we are all now behaving like nice boys and girls (actually, that was unfair to the feminine gender - I think it was only the men who engaged in the rough stuff earlier). Sandy, I too enjoy your posts for not only your insights, but for your prose.

And Madwand, seems you didn't pull up your chips and go home afterall! Well, if I could say good riddance, than I can also say 'welcome back'. Trust me, virtually all of us have both dished out and been on the receiving end of misguided arrows before.

As to some of your new (or more detailed questions), going to a boat show and inspecting some cats would be a good place to start to get the feel for not only how they are laid out, but also why. A few points/observations from this and some of your earlier posts:

1. The term 'bridgedeck' in a catamaran is generally used in reference to any solid structure between the two hulls; in a monohull, it is generally used in reference to the small deck (if any) between the cockpit and the companionway. The latter is, of course, an outside 'deck' and would not carry berths. The former, in most cruising cats, would include the entire main saloon and frequently the galley (if a galley up arrangement) and at least portions of some of the berths that are accessed from the hulls.
2. Many of the berths in a cruising cat are essentially flat foam over the interior of the bridgedeck (especially in the case of athwartship, or sideways mounted forward or aft berths). The only headroom there is typically sitting headroom as the bridgedeck house, or fully raised bridgedeck cabin does not extend that far forward of aft.

Yes, you could remove the mattress and use the former berth tops for a desk/workbench/storage, if you wished. But please understand that the actual area in the staterooms with full headroom is typically only the small area down the center of the hulls themselves.

Also understand that in many cats, the diesels, or tankage etc. is located under the portions of the berths that lie within the hulls themselves. Seldom is this just a big, wasted space elevating the berth from the cabin sole. The result is that berths are frequently installed where they are, not only because of the Charter industry and the preference of most buyers, but also because the space would be difficult to efficiently use for anything else.

Do I use all three of the cabins and both heads and the separate tub/shower room in my cat. Yes! Firstly, I have two staterooms with what are essentially ensuites and when I do have guests, it is a terrific feature. As to the separate shower/tub room, that was an optional layout in my boat (as opposed to a fourth stateroom in the area of the starboard bow) that completely separates the shower/bathing area and resultant moisture/dampness from the normal heads and the sleeping areas. Again, quite practical (in my view).

If I am not using one of the staterooms as such (which is the norm), I can store items on the mattress with netting that I have set up for that purpose. The forward port stateroom is rarely used on my boat for additional guests, but understand that the area beneath the actual berth is occupied by both water and holding tanks and hence, would be useless for anything else.

The only space I lose by keeping the mattress on board is the 4 inch thickness of the foam itself. Further, since the area is relatively far forward in the hull; and, as you'll read, since it is best to keep weight out of the ends of a cat (and especially the bows), then this area is really only suitable for storage of lightweight items such as the spinnaker, spare sails, and in my case, a guitar. And all of these (except the guitar) can be moved and stored on deck on the rare occasions I need the mattress for another guest.

Anyway, if a picture is worth a thousand words, an actual inspection of some cruising cats would be the equivalent of a book on the subject. Hit a boat show, or two (or look at some used boats near you) to get a clearer picture.

Brad

Brad

[gosstyla]

Madwand

My past several years experience may provide you a view of one person's answers to some of your questions.

My last boat was a 47ft Crowther custom built cat with the OSSA diesel electric propulsion. I designed the "house" to be about the size of what is commonly found on a 40ft cat but with only 2 cabins king size beds, 2 heads and 1 shower/bath.

After a 4,800 nm passage I decided the boat didn't meet my original specifications and probably never would so I sold it.

I have started designing my next boat. Here are a few items that have so far been determined:
1. length 60ft - 65ft
2. beam 25ft - 28ft
3. max hull beam at waterline 4.5ft
4. "house" about same size as last boat. However, instead of king size beds both cabins will have bunks much like in some Chris White designs. I've decided I will usually be alone, except for some longer passages when I will try to round up 3 crew, hence the 4 bunks.
5. max weight fully loaded for long ocean passage 28,000 lbs.
6. ketch or twin unstayed mast rig
7. 2 x 36hp yanmar outboards (or comparable) for propulsion

You may note that much of the above contradicts many of the other views expressed. This is going to be a 60ft+ cat for me cruising by myself, but it is not a "big" boat. Also, it will have 4 bunks 3 of which will probably not be used more than a few weeks per year - but they are needed.

I believe the best advise given you so far on this thread was basically
start with a trial boat, then after you have a better idea what you want get the second serious boat. Each persons objectives and desires are unique.

[fastcat435]

In order to get a faster catamaran making the accomodations smaller will always help A 50 ft cat with space of a 40 ft will perform better give the lower weigth to accompany.A 60 ft cat with a smaller saloon and accomodations of a 40 ft will fly.

Greetings

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Madwand

I do not want to motor any more than possibly to dock. If I am stuck in the doldrums for 6 weeks with no wind, that is fine, I am prepared for that. I also do not plan to dock or moor or live off either as some have surmised. I plan on moving frequently. And I am not a mechanic so no clue how to work on my gas guzzling deisels. Maybe I should have made those things clear from the start.



That helps in my understanding of how things get done on a boat. But are you land-based, or can you survive indefinitely with those items? I realize parts must be procured, but beyond that, can you get your parts and then move on, or must you rely on being tied to something to get it done?

Do you just step down into a hull and crawl down to a berth as I do in my V-berth on my 19 footer? I have never been on a cat so I do not know. Or do you walk upright?

First of all $200k + 40k a year is going to be a fine cruising lifestyle in my opinion. People are doing it for far less.

I would put the all electric aside for now. In my humble opinion that technology is not yet ready for prime time. It si fairly new and when things break in remote locations you will be sitting around waiting for parts that are as rare as unobtainium. It may be ready when you are but I also think it's going to be expensive and frankly I don't buy the hype that it is as green as people say it is, especially with piles of exotic batteries and eventually, work out solar panels to bury.

Diesels are cheap, plentiful, reliable and repairable.

I meet lot's of cruisers and while they are out there, it is the rare breed that "never" comes ashore. Almost everyone that comes through here is looking for a haulout, a place to drop the mast, a place to get some work done, etc.

Depending on what you are doing you will also be waiting at times for weather windows and at times that could be waiting for a season to change.

Don't underestimate stopping and smelling the roses rather then "moving around a lot."

None of this is judgemental, just keep your mind and options open.

As to whether my toolbox would work on the boat without shore support? Defnitely not. However, I could fix any problem at sea that I could imagine and jury rig a fix to get home with what I have on the boat. But while I am doing coastal cruising I alway look at each failure and ask if I could fix this at sea.

[imagine2frolic]

Madwand,

I have a custom cat that has a 8ft.X5ft. pantry in the strbrd hull. A workshop with the same deminsions in the port hull. The shop containing a workbench that is 18"X 6', and a second bench that is 12" X 6'. Each having cubby holes below, and one bench having cubby holes above the bench.

The forward strbrd berth is called steerage, because it is basically a full sized berth with a few drawers, and cubby holes. The aft berth is strbrd also,and quite comfortable, and pretty. Owners berth sits just to the rear, and port side of the mast. My head is at the mast when in it.

All things in a boat are a compromise. Unless you will be designing it yourself, and then things will be a compromise. Look through my gallery, and you will get a feel for what the boat is like. It is not a thoroughbred, but it is no slug either. You will need to do your research, and see what makes a cat a cat. There is no easy answer for your questions. Unfortunately you will have to do research upon research to be able to make a decision.

Also if your departure is 12 years away. You do have time to find a 30 footer plus, or minus for under $10k. It will be an extremely cheap investment to gather experience, and answer questions. Everybody has an opinion as you have found out. Some are valid, and some are just opinions. It will be up to you to ignore what bothers you,but it is also up to you to listen to every opinion. After all you asked a room full of strangers for guidance. You will not always hear what you want to hear.

I just arrived back from the Bahamas yesterday. I found someone to sail up the Florida coast with me.Their goal was to get some experience on a cat, and mine was to have an extra set of eyes, so I could get rest.

My suggestion is to test the waters in anyway you can, and on any kind of boat you can. Including powerboats too. Knowledge is everywhere, so accept every piece that comes your way. What annoys can be disregarded later after you have searched it for the smallest piece of help. BEST WISHES in your search. I understand, because most of us have been there, and done that........

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

I just arrived back from the Bahamas yesterday. I found someone to sail up the Florida coast with me.Their goal was to get some experience on a cat, and mine was to have an extra set of eyes, so I could get rest.


..

I would like to be "found" for that.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Therapy

I would like to be "found" for that.

Actually I looked back and realized I had cases booked on those days and could not apply.

Next time maybe!

[Madwand]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

First of all $200k + 40k a year is going to be a fine cruising lifestyle in my opinion. People are doing it for far less.

It will be as long as I don't have to spend it all on the boat...

I would put the all electric aside for now.

Unless price on electric falls drastically or electric becomes available in a smaller, cheaper boat, I won't be going electric now. I can't afford a million dollar boat, or even a heavily discounted used milliion dollar boat.

Diesels are cheap, plentiful, reliable and repairable.

I hope they are as easy to fix as everyone makes out here cause I don't know squat about fixing them. Never even seen one before. Can't fix gas engines either.

I meet lot's of cruisers and while they are out there, it is the rare breed that "never" comes ashore. Depending on what you are doing you will also be waiting at times for weather windows and at times that could be waiting for a season to change. Don't underestimate stopping and smelling the roses rather then "moving around a lot."

By "moving frequently," I meant not living at a dock, but travelling, and moving with the seasons.

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

Unless you will be designing it yourself, and then things will be a compromise.

That was the plan. That was the reason behind me asking why so many berths. I'd just as soon have three empty hulls and I could design myself. I just didn't want to have to demolish the boat builder's work.

Unfortunately you will have to do research upon research to be able to make a decision.

That's what I am doing now.

Also if your departure is 12 years away. You do have time to find a 30 footer plus, or minus for under $10k. It will be an extremely cheap investment to gather experience, and answer questions.

I am landlocked, there is no real sailing water near me for at least a 4 hour drive and at the moment I can neither afford a boat at any price or a place to keep it if I had one. That's why I have my trailer sailers. I'll get big boat experience when the time comes. I don't have any other choice.

[sandy daugherty]

Trailer sailers are a great way to gain experience, and have fun in the process. Provided they are easy to rig, a four hour commute (or a five hour time to float) is a reasonable weekend adventure, and you could work your way up to a pretty large boat under those circumstances. The fear here is that your needs can change in a dozen years and with some of that time spent exploring your options you would be closer to taking off for real. $200,000 is probably a lot more than you will need to buy and refurb a world cruiser. Most marine diesel engines are purely dirt simple. Take a small engine repair course at a local Junior College. Once you can take a lawn mower engine apart and put it back together, a Perkins 104 will be no mystery, and a small Yanmar will be a real delight to maintain. Most of us rarely have to do more than change filters, pumps, packing glands and zincs, or adjust linkages. Go for it!

Chartering a big boat is a fairly expensive vacation, but something very worth saving up for. I can't afford to do it very often, but I cherish the memories, and I don't have to spend two months getting my own cat down there. You might find a sailing club or ski club nearby that organizes these trips.

I'm from Texas; when I say you, I really mean y'all, and that means I'm not talking to any one person in particular!

[Madwand]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

$200,000 is probably a lot more than you will need to buy and refurb a world cruiser.

Yeah, I can probably outfit a $30,000 proven mono like a luxury boat, but I can't have the cat I envision.

You might find a sailing club or ski club nearby that organizes these trips.

I'm from Texas; when I say you, I really mean y'all, and that means I'm not talking to any one person in particular!

I'm near Baton Rouge, so the nearest sailing club is on Lake Pontchartrain and I don't even think they know what a cruising cat is there. Even that's an hour and a half drive. The training they offer is Yacht Club members only and I don't think they offer any classes above dinghy sailing. It'll probably be some years before I can go anywhere to actually step on some cats by knocking on hulls.

An engine class is a good idea, I'll get to that one day a,d maybe some sort of electrical course too.

[Brent Swain]

I made my current boat one big cabin. Excellent choice. No complaints . Would do it again. Many of my clients are doing the same. Putting the head in the aft corner, let me leave the rest open.
Brent