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Old 18-11-2015, 04:13   #601
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by admiralslater View Post
We own two (call us crazy) catamarans one of which is an 2003 Outremer 45. Last July we set out for a short sail hard on the wind and against the tide in 20 to 30 knots of wind and a short chop of about 4 to 7 feet. The wind gear was not working but we seemed to be tacking at a little les than 100 degrees. With a double reefed main and a single in the solent we were making about 7 knots to weather which I thought was reasonable ......
That sounds reasonable and according with the Outremer 45 Polar. In fact I trust more on a Polar, than on data posted or "showed" on a movie. The Polar can be a bit optimistic but the values that are there are the ones you get, probably in impossible good conditions, while on something out of a movie I don't know nothing about instrument calibration or currents that may be affecting speed.


On the Polar the speeds are bigger but then they are for sailing on flat water. That shows how a short chop of 4 to 7 feet can affect speed on a catamaran upwind.
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Old 18-11-2015, 04:52   #602
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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In fact I trust more on a Polar, than on data posted or "showed" on a movie.
So now 44c is making it up and fabricating video? Just, wow.

I'd suggest you look up some of the Australian designs and, in particular, the Bob Oram 44. You might find it enlightening what Cat designers are up to down here.
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Old 18-11-2015, 05:06   #603
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Old 18-11-2015, 05:18   #604
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by tp12 View Post
So now 44c is making it up and fabricating video? Just, wow.

I'd suggest you look up some of the Australian designs and, in particular, the Bob Oram 44. You might find it enlightening what Cat designers are up to down here.
Why are you saying that I said that? I only said that the speed on the log is not accurate (said by 44c) that the speed on the plotter is substantially less and does not take into account currents; that the sea, not coming from the bow suggests the existence of a current and finally that we don't know how well calibrated the wind instrument is.

Why do you infer from this that I am saying that 44c deliberated fake those results and fabricated a video?
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Old 18-11-2015, 05:29   #605
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Why are you saying that I said that? I only said that the speed on the log is not accurate (said by 44c) that the speed on the plotter is substantially less and does not take into account currents; that the sea, not coming from the bow suggests the existence of a current and finally that we don't know how well calibrated the wind instrument is.

Why do you infer from this that I am saying that 44c deliberated fake those results and fabricated a video?
You're really asking me that? That's not all you said. I quoted the relevant sentence, you've left that bit out.

He's gone to the length of posting a video and you're still questioning what he's described because it doesn't fit your narrative and (perhaps unconscious) bias.

Take his word for it, he built himself a quick boat. Seriously, go and look up the Australian cat designs and see what can be built for a lot less money than people seem to think. 44c's boat is an Oram design. Other good designers are Tony Grainger and Schionning here in Aus. You'd be surprised how they compare to the production catamaran fleet.
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Old 18-11-2015, 05:48   #606
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Maybe in Europe an Outremer 51 is a very fast boat. Not so much here.

But I don't think I'll bother with your ARC thread. I see enough of you rubbishing catamarans here in the multihull forum.
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Originally Posted by med View Post
Outremer used to make two kinds of cats. The usual condo type and a much lighter stripped out version which was a fair bit faster.
They only seem to do condos these days.
Fact is that I don't even see any need of separating forums in what regards monohulls and multihulls: they are all sailboats and I love them equally. This separation is artificial and only increases conflituality creating two ghettos that tend to have biased opinions regarding the "other side", that is viewed as the "enemy" and with "wrong" opinions about sailing and sailing boats. They are all sailingboats, with strong and weak points and that is why there is a market for both types.

The original subject had to do with condo cats and motoring. Regarding that I said that they have a poor upwind sailing performance. it seems that it is a well documented and accepted point. I also said that condo cats when well sailed have a remarkably good downwind performance for condo boats. Is this rubbishing cats? or is it the reality?

It seems that it is you that are rubbishing performance monohulls claiming that they have a worse performance upwind than a similar sized performance multihull. Never said that a performance cat has not a good upwind performance and again, all the discussion was about condo cats, that are the vast majority of cats around, not about performance multihulls.

So now, Outremer only builds condo cats!!!!!!!

I was talking about the Outremer 51, that is going to make the ARC, a new model that has a SA/D 29.2 and a D/L 77.5. The old good and fast Outremer 45, a performance cat, has a SA/D 28.9 and D/L 78.8.

So, the new Outremer 51 has better ratios than the old 45 (in what concerns sailing speed) and you conclude that today Outremer only makes condo cats

Regarding the ARC thread: how can reality rubbish cats or monohulls? or if the reality does not adhere to the idea you have of the comparative performance between monohulls and cats, while on passage by average sailors, cats are being rubbished?
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Old 18-11-2015, 05:58   #607
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

I wouldn't say Outremer's were condo cats. I would consider them one of the more performance oriented production cats but they don't have the performance numbers of some of performance cruising designs out there. Like 44c's cat.
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Old 18-11-2015, 06:00   #608
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by tp12 View Post
You're really asking me that? That's not all you said. I quoted the relevant sentence, you've left that bit out.
..
The relevant sentence you posted is this:
Originally Posted by Polux
In fact I trust more on a Polar, than on data posted or "showed" on a movie.

How does this imply that I am saying that the movie was intentionally fabricated? I explained why I would trust more on a polar than data gathered under no controlled conditions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
..In fact I trust more on a Polar, than on data posted or "showed" on a movie. The Polar can be a bit optimistic but the values that are there are the ones you get, probably in impossible good conditions, while on something out of a movie I don't know nothing about instrument calibration or currents that may be affecting speed....
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Old 18-11-2015, 07:21   #609
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Polux, where did you get that polar, it would be neat to have iot on board to check the accuracy.
Regarding condo Outremers I was at the factory last month and toured a new 45. While larger than the Danson design, they oin no could be considered condo. This one had carbon rotating mast, carbon bulkheads and that really cool tiller system, and lithium batteries . The chap I was speaking to saoid that double digit speeds are normal with sprints to the high teens likely.
It seems to me that one speeds hoit the teens on a boat of this lenght, you have switched from relaxed cruising to focused sailing as the margin for error comes down. This talk of very high speeds on cruising cats or monohulls doesn't mean much in most cases as it requires a lot of energy to stay safe.
If you are going for the win in the ARC with all your buddies, we'll that's different
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Old 18-11-2015, 08:43   #610
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

We motor when we're on a schedule, such as needing to reach a port at a certain time to catch a tide.

We also motor if we're just out for the weekend or losing the light and entering a new harbor.

However if there is wind we sail.

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Old 18-11-2015, 09:14   #611
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Nothing wrong with condo cats. They are very good at what they were designed for. I.e. being comfortable at anchor, at the dock and while underway with good speed in good conditions.

For most sailors good conditions means the wind is going the right way. A lot of cruisers will either wait until the wind is going the right way, or motor into the wind. This means that a cruising boat should be optimized for downwind sailing.

A lot of cruisers with their condo cats would not like to end up in the situation which occurs at 47 seconds into this video.

https://vimeo.com/125378004
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Old 18-11-2015, 09:30   #612
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
....
Maybe you get a wet ride, we stay pretty dry. Our fine bows don't generate much spray, even with boatspeeds in the teens.
Maybe you don't remember the conditions were the video was made. Look at it again:


There is almost no waves and the sea is not coming from the bow, but from the side, and that suggest a current. There would not be any spray on those conditions no matter the type of boat used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
....
I realise we weren't going close upwind. Not by your standards anyway. ~28' would be a broad reach for your boat.

I await your video of you sailing at 10 knots in 10 knots at 10' apparent. I mean yours is a performance mono, the ultimate upwind sailing machine, where I have a pile of crap catamaran, which can only move when it is motoring at least 100% of the time.
...
You seem to make any discussion a personal one as if this discussion, about the poor upwind performance of condo cats, had to do with your boat, or my boat.

Contrary to you I rarely talk about the performance of my boat and try to use reliable data from other boats and other sources when comparing different types of boats simply because one tends to be biased regarding his own boat. Anyway your boat is a 44ft and mine is a 41ft so I don't see any point in what regards comparisons.

But since you insist in comparing the performance of your boat upwind, even with non controlled data (the sea direction seems to indicate that there is a current), lets have the data your instruments show even if you are using SOG, since you say that the log is unreliable and gives higher speeds. I have looked carefully at the movie:

You have an inside wind instrument that is set for true and gives a true wind of 11.9K. The SOG on the plotter oscillates between 8.7 and 8.5K and the apparent wind angle at the beginning of the video marks about 27º and at the end of the movie about 30º. Let's consider an average apparent wind angle (28.5º) and average SOG speed (8.6K) and the true wind that is marked on the interior wind instrument (11.9.). That gives a VMG of 5.7K with a true wind angle of 48.5º.
Apparent Wind Calculator | Hyde Sails Direct
In what concerns upwind performance the numbers that count are not those of the pointing angle or speed but the VMG upwind, that consider both parameters. Regarding performance cruisers the size of your boat, well a little smaller, we can look at the performance of the Landmark 43, like your own boat, not a carbon boat, but one with performances above average:

with 12 k wind the boat makes a VMG of 5.8 with a true wind angle of 36.9º.

The data is not coming from Polars but from ORCI rating files and you can be sure that if that data was not possible to achieve under good conditions it would be already modified, since there are several Landmark 43 racing and all the owners want those numbers as low as they can possibly be, to have better racing results. The Landmark 43 is a very competitive boat in ORC rating and that means that those numbers are for real.

But I still think that there is some current helping that SOG speed on your boat.

Since you like to compare your boat with monohulls we can extend that comparison a bit further and look at another video of yours were your cat is making with 11k true wind 8.9/9k speed at 120º true wind angle.

I agree that this angle is more favorable for a cat than for a monohull but even so let's compare with the performance of the smaller Landmark 43 at that angle and since I have not data for 11k wind, with 10 and 12k true wind: 12k TRW - 9.26K, 10K TRW - 8.60K.

But I still believe that for looking at the general performance of cats versus monohulls, in what regards downwind sailing and on passage, there is no better place than the ARC. We can discount the two extreme performances, a extremely good one and a extremely bad one and we get an average of what the boats are able to do with average crews, while doing an Atlantic crossing.
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Old 18-11-2015, 09:50   #613
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by med View Post
Nothing wrong with condo cats. They are very good at what they were designed for. I.e. being comfortable at anchor, at the dock and while underway with good speed in good conditions.

For most sailors good conditions means the wind is going the right way. A lot of cruisers will either wait until the wind is going the right way, or motor into the wind. This means that a cruising boat should be optimized for downwind sailing.

A lot of cruisers with their condo cats would not like to end up in the situation which occurs at 47 seconds into this video.

https://vimeo.com/125378004
And it would not happen. Several capsizes happened with performance cats even much less racing oriented than that one, cruising performance cats, but those accidents are extremely rare with heavier condo cats.

That is one of the reasons why you can have offshore cruising condo cats with 36/38ft but it is risky to have an offshore true performance cat with that size, except with a racing crew. That's why brands of performance cats like Catana, Outremer, Sig or Atlantic start their series at well over 40ft, most of the times 44ft or over.

Regarding smaller monohull cruisers the problem regarding seaworthiness does not happen regarding more heavier spacious cruisers and lighter performance ones. The extra weight is compensated in what regards stability by a superior B/D ratio and by a better dynamic stability. You have on the market several offshore light 30ft performance cruisers.
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Old 18-11-2015, 10:17   #614
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by admiralslater View Post
Polux, where did you get that polar, it would be neat to have iot on board to check the accuracy.
That Polar was posted by Aeroyachts that sell Outremer on the US. It is not on line anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralslater View Post
Regarding condo Outremers I was at the factory last month and toured a new 45. While larger than the Danson design, they oin no could be considered condo. This one had carbon rotating mast, carbon bulkheads and that really cool tiller system, and lithium batteries . The chap I was speaking to saoid that double digit speeds are normal with sprints to the high teens likely.
It seems to me that one speeds hoit the teens on a boat of this lenght, you have switched from relaxed cruising to focused sailing as the margin for error comes down. This talk of very high speeds on cruising cats or monohulls doesn't mean much in most cases as it requires a lot of energy to stay safe.
If you are going for the win in the ARC with all your buddies, we'll that's different
Yes, I agree with you in what regards Outremers to be performance boats and also regarding a more fast boat requiring more work to be sailed, but the ones that sail them like to have that extra work for speed, that for them is much about the pleasure and fun of sailing. I also agree that for some that extra work would be quite tiresome and the fun of a fast sailing boat not fun but quite distressing.

That's why you have on the market cruising cats and monohulls for all the tastes.

But regarding that energy to stay safe there is a huge difference in what regards the margins of safety between a fast performance monohull and a fast performance cat: A big error on the monohull leads to a broach, not agreeable but nothing of special (if one is harnessed to the boat as it should on conditions that can happen), but on a cat that means a capsize and that is a completely different situation.

In fact I believe that is what makes, on conditions of an extended passage with average crews, like the ARC, monohulls theoretically slower than some cats, having the same or better performance: On the monohulls you can lead the boat nearer the limits taking much less risks while on a multihull you simply don't want to be near the limits because that can have much more disastrous consequences.

Regarding the crews, have someone said on another thread, nobody likes to be overtaken and everybody wants to catch the boat that sails ahead, but I agree that there are very different crews even if never top ones, I mean professionals. The ARC is a very much an amateur race and that is what makes it interesting regarding results. You have only to exclude the exceptionally good ones and the exceptionally bad ones to stay with an average that can be meaningful regarding what about everybody that knows how to sail properly can make with a given type of boat.
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Old 18-11-2015, 11:12   #615
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Polux, I always enjoy your input on the forum. Your passion for sailing and boats, and an open minded approach to gathering information is evident.

It is normal for some members to read with a bias and become quick to judge statements to be biased against their own views unfairly. That's just in human nature.

I too like all boat configurations. Have only owned two boats, a Hobie 18 and my Pearson 323. Both have suited my desires and budget perfectly. I feel lucky to have got it right for me on each purchase.

No need for looking to upgrade. But if I ever win the lottery there is little doubt I'll replace them with a Sig45 and a Discovery 57. Dream on I guess, but I have free time for dreaming; and sailing.
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